Charging Children As Adults

[Winchester]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1066864' date='Sep 19 2006, 04:19 PM']
I think my school polic officer should be in trouble. The attack happen within about 10 feet of his office.
[/quote]

Oh good, because within ten feet, police can see through walls. Kid, you get a job like that and come back to me in a year with your opinion. You need more facts than proximity before you start messing with someone's job.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1066864' date='Sep 19 2006, 04:19 PM']
I think my school polic officer should be in trouble. The attack happen within about 10 feet of his office.
[/quote]
I think you shift blame too much

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' post='1066867' date='Sep 19 2006, 04:20 PM']
I agree. I have friends and a sister who are freshmen and if anyone pummeled them, I would go into the offensive to defend them. I don't care what kind of situation it is, it doesn't change how people should treat each other
[/quote]


Yes it does, the situation certianly changes how you should treat someone. One situation calls for gifts, another for bullets, very differant.

[avemaria40]

What I mean is, I don't care if your home life is bad, it doesn't give you the excuse to beat up someone smaller than you

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' post='1066906' date='Sep 19 2006, 04:52 PM']
What I mean is, I don't care if your home life is bad, it doesn't give you the excuse to beat up someone smaller than you
[/quote]
\


No arguement there.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='1066623' date='Sep 19 2006, 11:08 AM']
I covered a case several years ago <snip>

[/quote]

Yep, in my mind, this falls into pseudo self-defense... serious crime? no doubt. Punishment warrented? Absolutely. Adult system? No way.

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1066753' date='Sep 19 2006, 02:46 PM']
It was, just more intense.
[/quote]
So, beating on a freshman for less than a minute, but badly enough to put the kid in the hospital for TWO DAYS (any idea how badly you have to be injured to be allowed to stay in the hospital for that long these days?) is okay in your opinion if the abuser is also a victim? Is it now okay for the freshman victim to go home and beat the carp out of his little sister?

[quote name='Winchester' post='1066877' date='Sep 19 2006, 04:28 PM']
Oh good, because within ten feet, police can see through walls. Kid, you get a job like that and come back to me in a year with your opinion. You need more facts than proximity before you start messing with someone's job.
[/quote]

Ten feet and (supposedly) less than a minute to react. Glad I don't have that job.

[Socrates]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1066406' date='Sep 18 2006, 09:42 PM']
He comes from a horrible home. The legal system failed him.
[/quote]
How did the legal system "fail him"?

What was the legal system supposed to do, pat him on the head and give him a lollipop?

I don't know about the circumstances of this attack, but his age has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence here, nor does his home life.

People need to get over this "everybody's a victim" mentality, stop making excuses for criminal behavior, and start facing up to the fact that people are responsible for their own behavior.

Adolf Hitler's life was pretty rough in the days before he rose to power. Does that excuse him for the holocaust?

If this guy's 17 years old, he's not a tiny tot, he's not some wide-eyed innocent; he's old enough to take responsibility for his own actions.

I'm starting to get sick of all this mush-headed bleeding-heart nonsense here, which is overflowing with sympathy and false "charity" for every violent criminal, yet cares next to nothing about the victims of crime, nor of true justice.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Socrates

[Anomaly]

No matter what your life's circumstances, you are responsible for your choices. We are not predestined to choose evil at any time. We are predestined to have to choose between evil and good many times in life. There may be reasons why we choose wrongly, but reasons are not excuses. The idea that someone over the age of reason (generally over the age of 5 or 6) has no choice and is not responsible is ludicrous and is the root of US Society's problems.

If somebody hospitalized my child because of a 'too intense Freshy hazing', I would be hard pressed not their leg. I would have to consider that I have reason to break their leg and balance that with the legal consequences of doing so. It doesn't matter how close I am with my child, or my upbringing, or my current life circumstances.

No teenager that is able to go to a regular school is so mentally deficient they do not know that hurting someone is wrong, against the school rules, against the law, and there will be consequences. They may choose to not think about the consequences, hope they can get away with it, or hope the consequences will be minor. They may even make the choice they are willing to face the consequences because they feel justified in choosing to act as the greater good, such as figting in self defense or to protect. But bottom line, they rolled the dice and made their choice to take that risk.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Anomaly

[Winchester]

If someone is that unaware of consequences and displays a propensity for violence, then let us protect him from himself and institutionalize him.

Of course, we must look at all the circumstances. If the supposed assaulter were defending someone, then we must reduce his punishment. If the fishy was an abuser of women, then the victor deserves a medal.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1067960' date='Sep 20 2006, 08:00 AM']
No teenager that is able to go to a regular school is so mentally deficient they do not know that hurting someone is wrong, against the school rules, against the law, and there will be consequences. They may choose to not think about the consequences, hope they can get away with it, or hope the consequences will be minor. They may even make the choice they are willing to face the consequences because they feel justified in choosing to act as the greater good, such as figting in self defense or to protect. But bottom line, they rolled the dice and made their choice to take that risk.
[/quote]
I recall that when I was younger, I was not well liked. To this day, I have no good explanation as to why. There was 90ish other students in my grade from the day I entered first grade to the day I finished 8th. I was tormented daily by 3/4 of my classmates(the other 1/4 being completely indifferent to me). Called a "flower" so much that for a time I believed it. Even the other students whom no one liked joined in mockery of me. My boy scout troup up and decided it would be a good idea to beat the carp out of me one day for no reason. Even teachers made fun of me. My one friend in that school was the principle, whom I was sent to about once a month. He knew I wasn't a bad kid when almost no one else did.

That being said, your post reminded me of one day in the 8th grade when I was being particularly tormented mostly by insulting my mother. I got in mild trouble and had to sit in a chair in the corner facing the wall. A girl, who had up until that day pretty much ignored me (never was mean to me, but never was nice either) came up to me, still sitting in the chair, right after class got out(last one of the day) and she had intended to ask me if I was ok. Having been tormented like I was for the last 8 years of my life, I naturally assumed that it was someone getting in a "last word" as was all too common. She got as far as "are yo.." before I was out of my chair. I shoved her halfway across that classroom before I knew what I was doing. Lucky her, she stayed on her feet and remained unharmed.

Knowing that, do you still think the way you do? I am heartily sorry for attacking her, but can you still honestly say that I was responsible for that choice? I would tend to look to those who drilled into my head the idea that everything out of a classmate's mouth had harmful intent for eight years straight to be ones who drove me to it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1069132' date='Sep 21 2006, 01:45 AM']
Knowing that, do you still think the way you do? I am heartily sorry for attacking her, but can you still honestly say that I was responsible for that choice? I would tend to look to those who drilled into my head the idea that everything out of a classmate's mouth had harmful intent for eight years straight to be ones who drove me to it.
[/quote]


I too was greatly picked on and abused at school in perhaps worse than you have been, and I am greatly sorrry that you had to go threw what you did, however yes absolutely it is your fault and your fault alone for "attacking" the young girl. Your bullys did not force you to push the girl, you did it by your own free will. We can not blame our sins, personal sins on others, or say the devil made me do it. What the kids did to you was no doubt evil and sinful, but your sins are yours alone, and cannot be blamed on others, no matter how much we are persecuted.

Also it does seem you like you still hate your bullies, I pray that you forgive them all, and adment your personal sins.

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1066864' date='Sep 19 2006, 03:19 PM']
I think my school polic officer should be in trouble. The attack happen within about 10 feet of his office.
[/quote]


Was he in the office at the time? Or somewhere else on school grounds doing his duty?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1069132' date='Sep 21 2006, 01:45 AM']
I recall that when I was younger, I was not well liked. To this day, I have no good explanation as to why. There was 90ish other students in my grade from the day I entered first grade to the day I finished 8th. I was tormented daily by 3/4 of my classmates(the other 1/4 being completely indifferent to me). Called a "flower" so much that for a time I believed it. Even the other students whom no one liked joined in mockery of me. My boy scout troup up and decided it would be a good idea to beat the carp out of me one day for no reason. Even teachers made fun of me. My one friend in that school was the principle, whom I was sent to about once a month. He knew I wasn't a bad kid when almost no one else did.

That being said, your post reminded me of one day in the 8th grade when I was being particularly tormented mostly by insulting my mother. I got in mild trouble and had to sit in a chair in the corner facing the wall. A girl, who had up until that day pretty much ignored me (never was mean to me, but never was nice either) came up to me, still sitting in the chair, right after class got out(last one of the day) and she had intended to ask me if I was ok. Having been tormented like I was for the last 8 years of my life, I naturally assumed that it was someone getting in a "last word" as was all too common. She got as far as "are yo.." before I was out of my chair. I shoved her halfway across that classroom before I knew what I was doing. Lucky her, she stayed on her feet and remained unharmed.

Knowing that, do you still think the way you do? I am heartily sorry for attacking her, but can you still honestly say that I was responsible for that choice? I would tend to look to those who drilled into my head the idea that everything out of a classmate's mouth had harmful intent for eight years straight to be ones who drove me to it.
[/quote]


Short answer to be cleary. YES, you are responsible for shoving her. Some of the bullies are responsible too, but that doesn't lessen YOUR responsiblity.

Don't try to get in a horror trading contest. I know people that had it much worse than what you described. I know people who were physically, sexually, and emotinally abused for years that take ownership for their choices. Just because others share some of the blame does not take the blame away from you. Forgive one of the instances you were bullied and you can forgive yourself for your mistake. We all make mistakes, but that doesn't mean we aren't responsible for our mistkes.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1069146' date='Sep 21 2006, 07:30 AM']
Short answer to be clear. YES, you are responsible for shoving her. Some of the bullies are responsible too, but that doesn't lessen YOUR responsiblity.
[/quote]
I think there are two considerations here.

Clearly, he committed the act, and did so out of anger, intentionally. So from that perspective, responsibility (or guilt) is there. However, there are mitigating factors that should be considered -- not, perhaps, that would absolve him of responsibility for the act but rather that would affect how he's punished for it.

This reminds me of a case I read recently for one of my classes. Three men are on a ship, their boat capsizes, and they're stuck in the middle of the ocean for several weeks, with very little food and water. As time progresses, the men grow weaker, and death appears imminent. Two of the men conspire to kill and cannibalize the third, reasoning that if they don't none of them will live. So, they do. They're rescued several days later, and rescuers say that it is indeed likely that the men would have died but for the cannibalization. The men are, nonetheless, charged with murder. They are found guilty, but later pardoned by the queen (British case). Culpability attaches, but in determining a punishment for the crime we realize that there are extenuating circumstances, and that perhaps a reasonable person in a similar situation would have acted in a similar manner.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1069132' date='Sep 21 2006, 02:45 AM']
I recall that when I was younger, I was not well liked. To this day, I have no good explanation as to why. There was 90ish other students in my grade from the day I entered first grade to the day I finished 8th. I was tormented daily by 3/4 of my classmates(the other 1/4 being completely indifferent to me). Called a "flower" so much that for a time I believed it. Even the other students whom no one liked joined in mockery of me. My boy scout troup up and decided it would be a good idea to beat the carp out of me one day for no reason. Even teachers made fun of me. My one friend in that school was the principle, whom I was sent to about once a month. He knew I wasn't a bad kid when almost no one else did.

That being said, your post reminded me of one day in the 8th grade when I was being particularly tormented mostly by insulting my mother. I got in mild trouble and had to sit in a chair in the corner facing the wall. A girl, who had up until that day pretty much ignored me (never was mean to me, but never was nice either) came up to me, still sitting in the chair, right after class got out(last one of the day) and she had intended to ask me if I was ok. Having been tormented like I was for the last 8 years of my life, I naturally assumed that it was someone getting in a "last word" as was all too common. She got as far as "are yo.." before I was out of my chair. I shoved her halfway across that classroom before I knew what I was doing. Lucky her, she stayed on her feet and remained unharmed.

Knowing that, do you still think the way you do? I am heartily sorry for attacking her, but can you still honestly say that I was responsible for that choice? I would tend to look to those who drilled into my head the idea that everything out of a classmate's mouth had harmful intent for eight years straight to be ones who drove me to it.
[/quote]

You did not send a kid to the hospital for two days.

He was in 12th grade, not 8th.

There is no concrete evidence of the freshman tormenting of the 12th grader yet presented.

Mitigating circumstances are presented at the trial and/or sentencing stage.

Do you know what this sounds like to me? What happens at the beginning of the year at a lot of high schools? "Freshman initiation" by the upperclassmen. And it is right of the courts to crack down like this when someone gets sent to the hospital, especially when the school district can be later sued if they do not take steps if the offender injures or kills someone again.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1069136' date='Sep 21 2006, 03:46 AM']

Was he in the office at the time? Or somewhere else on school grounds doing his duty?
[/quote]

I believe he was.