The Islam Call To Prayer At Mass

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1066093' date='Sep 18 2006, 04:28 PM']
If Budge's point is that this is [b]contrary to the spirit of true Evangelism, I would have to agree[/b]. If her point is that this typifies the Roman Catholic Teaching on such, I would have to disagree. Either way, [b]it is a sad thing[/b].
[/quote]
How and why?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1066070' date='Sep 18 2006, 02:50 PM']
Bishop Milingo reconciled and then flew the coop again. The Church believes in forgiveness. In fact, the Church is in the business of forgiveness. That doesn't mean people won't sin again.

My point about the laity was that if you want the Church to do well, pray for it. Bishops need prayers as much if not more than the rest of us. It's not our place to tell the bishops what to do.[/quote]Read up a bit more on Milingo. His marriage wasn't an aberration. He's had a long history of disobedience. God gave us a bit of intellect and we really should try to use it. There's forgiveness, and there is justice and prudent behavior. He's only been ordained with graces which he chooses to avail himself to or not. He, (or any Bishop, Pope, or priest) wasn't endowed with magical perfection. If he can't perform the task, don't have him in the position.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Anomaly

[ruso]

Budge, you are a clown.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1066121' date='Sep 18 2006, 04:58 PM']
How and why?
[/quote]

Because inviting some one into our sacred churches to balspheme is unholy. The Cathedral is for Catholic Liturgy.

Now a Concert exhibiting different chants from differents faiths I could stomach if it were not inside our Church. Listening to the link was neat, if a little frieghtening.

But using our sacred altars intended for Christ is false Ecumenism. Ecumenism is honestly examining the Truth. It is honest dialogue. It is not shared prayer.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1066319' date='Sep 18 2006, 09:05 PM']
Because inviting some one into our sacred churches to balspheme is unholy. The Cathedral is for Catholic Liturgy.

Now a Concert exhibiting different chants from differents faiths I could stomach if it were not inside our Church. Listening to the link was neat, if a little frieghtening.

But using our sacred altars intended for Christ is false Ecumenism. Ecumenism is honestly examining the Truth. It is honest dialogue. It is not shared prayer.
[/quote]
Thanks for your answer. :-)

I can't say they used the altar. The Cathedral has a large music area and seating area. Those facilities and the ambo were probably used.

I've been to church activities in the main worship space other than mass, so I know churches have been used their facilities for more than Mass.

Yes, it's in the main worship space, but the ceremony itself was not a religious one. It was a musical one.

I understand the unease. I guess the silver lining is people who would not normally hear Christian and Catholic readings had a chance to hear it. And the super bonus is it's nothing like Budge's copy/paste portrayed it to be. If it was true, that would have been really offensive.

[Norseman82]

Budge,

Whereas a lot of us agree that this is wrong, what is your purpose in posting that here? Would it not be more efective to write the Archbishop and/or the Apostolic Nuncio (the Vatican's representative here)? Or are you just trying to spur us to do so?

[Aloysius]

praying to a god of another religion, or promoting a founder of another religion, or even a heresiarch like mohammad might be said to be, in a Catholic Cathedral is absolutely outrageous, even if it is solely musical and solely artistic. If they cut out the reference to mohammad, since "allah" is the arab word for "God", then perhaps it would have been acceptable, especially since it was not part of worship but part of a concert. But even as a concert, shouting that Mohammad is God's only messenger in a Catholic Cathedral is absolutely blasphemous, sacrilidgeous, and offensive.

The Bishop of Barcelona was once approached with a request that the muslims could use his cathedral on fridays for their prayers, since its site had once been a place of a muslim mosque when the moors ruled spain. The Bishop told him something to the effect of "when they let us build a Cathedral in Saudi Arabia, we will let you worship in our Cathedral in Barcelona". They were, of course, horribly offended. It makes sense that Catholics should yield to them and their requests, of course, because they are the true religion.. but it certainly does not make sense that they should yield to us because we are a false religion!

We are letting the muslims walk all over us... and letting them shout their prayer calls inside a Catholic Church is just one more declaration to them that "you are right, we are the false religion, we ought to concede to you at every turn"

Even though we (though few left in number) believe Catholicism to be the True Religion and Islam to be a false reliigon, we would never think of the logic the Barcelonian muslims had when they were indignant over being turned down at our request... and for that precise reason we are being very naive to the muslim temperment in letting them do as they please in our churches. We are playing right into their hand.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1066140' date='Sep 18 2006, 06:22 PM']
Read up a bit more on Milingo. His marriage wasn't an aberration. He's had a long history of disobedience. God gave us a bit of intellect and we really should try to use it. There's forgiveness, and there is justice and prudent behavior. He's only been ordained with graces which he chooses to avail himself to or not. He, (or any Bishop, Pope, or priest) wasn't endowed with magical perfection. If he can't perform the task, don't have him in the position.
[/quote]
Has he done this 77 times?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1066586' date='Sep 19 2006, 09:02 AM']
Has he done this 77 times?
[/quote]Forgiveness is one thing. Leaving him in a position when his past behaviors have repeatedly caused scandal and damaged people's faith is another thing.
Cardinal Law was about forgiveness and allowed molesting priests to go to another parish. Is that to be continued until the limit of 77 victims?

Wouldn't it be wiser to remove the priest from the situation where he can easily destroy more young lives and put him working in another situation while helping him get real treatment? Civil law regarding sexual molestation reflects Christian morality. The Bishops should recognize that and cooperate within the civil laws for the priest to be punished as the rest of us would be. Instead, they made a bad situation worse by trying to evade the consequences of their sins. More people suffered and more people were outraged.

[dUSt]

This thread is being closed because there is nothing to debate.

[Theoketos]

I would and should because I can like to add the norms for no liturgical music inside of Churches. [url="http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=95130"]Source[/url]

For brevity, we will limit ourselves to quoting its practical norms. It is also possible that individual bishops' conferences or even individual bishops publish norms that apply these principles to concrete situation:

"III. Practical Directives

"8. The regulation of the use of churches is stipulated by canon 1210 of the Code of Canon Law:

"In a sacred place only those things are to be permitted which serve to exercise or promote worship, piety and religion. Anything out of harmony with the holiness of the place is forbidden. The Ordinary may, however, for individual cases, permit other uses, provided they are not contrary to the sacred character of the place.

"The principle that the use of the church must not offend the sacredness of the place determines the criteria by which the doors of a church may be opened to a concert of sacred or religious music, as also the concomitant exclusion of every other type of music. The most beautiful symphonic music, for example, is not in itself of religious character. The definition of sacred or religious music depends explicitly on the original intended use of the musical pieces or songs, and likewise on their content. It is not legitimate to provide for the execution in the church of music which is not of religious inspiration and which was composed with a view to performance in a certain precise secular context, irrespective of whether the music would be judged classical or contemporary, of high quality or of a popular nature. On the one hand, such performances would not respect the sacred character of the church, and on the other, would result in the music being performed in an unfitting context ….

"9. Sacred music, that is to say music which was composed for the Liturgy, but which for various reasons can no longer be performed during a liturgical celebration, and religious music, that is to say music inspired by the text of sacred scripture or the Liturgy and which has reference to God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to the saints or to the Church, may both find a place in the church building, but outside liturgical celebration. The playing of the organ or other musical performance, whether vocal or instrumental, may: 'serve to promote piety or religion.' In particular they may:

"a. prepare for the major liturgical feasts, or lend to these a more festive character beyond the moment of actual celebration; b. bring out the particular character of the different liturgical seasons; c. create in churches a setting of beauty conducive to meditation, so as to arouse even in those who are distant from the Church an openness to spiritual values; d. create a context which favors and makes accessible the proclamation of God's word, as for example, a sustained reading of the Gospel; e. keep alive the treasures of Church music which must not be lost; musical pieces and songs composed for the Liturgy but which cannot in any way be conveniently incorporated into liturgical celebrations in modern times; spiritual music, such as oratorios and religious cantatas which can still serve as vehicles for spiritual communication; f. assist visitors and tourists to grasp more fully the sacred character of a church, by means of organ concerts at prearranged times.

"10. When the proposal is made that there should be a concert in a church, the Ordinary is to grant the permission 'per modum actus.' These concerts should be occasional events. This excludes permission for a series of concerts, for example in the case of a festival or a cycle of concerts.

"When the Ordinary considers it to be necessary, he can, in the conditions foreseen in the Code of Canon Law (can. 1222, para. 2) designate a church that is no longer used for divine service, to be an 'auditorium' for the performance of sacred or religious music, and also of music not specifically religious but in keeping with the character of the place.

"In this task the bishop should be assisted by the diocesan commission for Liturgy and sacred music.

"In order that the sacred character of a church be conserved in the matter of concerts, the Ordinary can specify that:

"a. Requests are to be made in writing, in good time, indicating the date and time of the proposed concert, the program, giving the works and the names of the composers.

"b. After having received the authorization of the Ordinary, the rectors and parish priests of the churches should arrange details with the choir and orchestra so that the requisite norms are observed.

"c. Entrance to the church must be without payment and open to all.

"d. The performers and the audience must be dressed in a manner which is fitting to the sacred character of the place.

"e. The musicians and the singers should not be placed in the sanctuary. The greatest respect is to be shown to the altar, the president's chair and the ambo.

"f. The Blessed Sacrament should be, as far as possible, reserved in a side chapel or in another safe and suitably adorned place (Cf. C.I.C., can 928, par. 4).

"g. The concert should be presented or introduced not only with historical or technical details, but also in a way that fosters a deeper understanding and an interior participation on the part of the listeners.

"h. The organizer of the concert will declare in writing that he accepts legal responsibilities for expenses involved, for leaving the church in order and for any possible damage incurred.

"11. The above practical directives should be of assistance to the bishops and rectors of churches in their pastoral responsibility to maintain the sacred character of their churches, designed for sacred celebrations, prayer and silence."