dabukthumpa Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 Thanks for the point taken Polar Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 I was trying however to make the point that a deep starry night causes one to stand in amazement - usually clowdy skies don't do that to most people. But something about the starry night causes people to stand and be at awe. I too have watched many awe inspiring storms roll in over Lake Michigan (as it is out my back door) - and your point is well taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 I really need good hard stats for this poll - since I am doing a study. Please vote and feel to express opinions. But keep them to the topic. I am not pitting one rite agains the other - and Both rites are valid - and loved by the Church. I am not also not wanting to know if you like one type of community better than another. I am simply looking at the rite themselves and asking if you think one is objectively more beautiful than the other. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 JMJ 1/14 - First Wednesday I don't know if this addition means anything, but before the regulation of the Novus Ordo Missae the Dominicans had their own Liturgy - talk about GORGEOUS! I attended one on the Feast of St. Dominic in Indianapolis, IN, a couple of years ago at the Tridentine parish in that archdiocese. The Tridentine Liturgy ain't got nothin' on the Dominicans. Yours, Pio Nono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 The Carthusians still have their own Rite - it is similar to the Traditional Roman Rite - however - I have never seen it - since one can not just pop into a Carthusian Monastary. thanks for the insight - and did you vote on the question yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Also - suprised no one is helping me out here. Come on ya'll get on and vote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Please vote if you haven't. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Thanks for those of you who were willing to get in on this - however I am majorly bummed that it seemingly was of no great interest to the majority (unless the majority of Phatmassers is about 20 people). I could really use the statistics - and the thoughts. I guess I will have to hit the streets with this one. Thanks to you who have taken the time to get in on this - I really am grateful. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 JMJ 1/15 - First Thursday If you're looking for the traditional Liturgy of the Roman Rite, you're not going to find it in the Tridentine Mass - you have to go back to the Uniate Liturgies of the 11th century. THAT'S traditional. Perhaps we should think about reviving the tradition of pulling a curtain around the sanctuary at the time of consecration....j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Joseph Jungmann wrote a huge work - on the development of the Roman Rite - it is truly amazing. Is anyone familier??? And the orthodox still contiune the tradition of retaining an Iconoclasis (spelling?) which seperates the congegation from the Santuary. Also - Traditional is a large and complex understanding itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 It has been awhile but I am still collecting data - so I am going to send this back to the top - in hopes that I will gain at least a few more votes. Thanks again for all of you who voted. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 A few of the factors in my decision: 1A. The current english translation of the novus ordo (and lectionary) is terrible and has some ugly elements (distorted phrases, inclusivity, loss of many biblical allusions, etc.) 1.B The Tridentine Mass has a much richer biblical language and symbolism, many Psalms are intoned and the prayers themselves are much richer and fuller from a stylistic, theological, and biblical point of view. 2.A The novus order has far fewer distinctly Catholic elements. The aspect of the Mass as a Sacrifice is diminished, references to Our Lady, St. Michael, St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles and Martyrs etc. were stripped out. This is a loss for many reasons, but from an aesthetic perspective it's a loss because the Faith itself is beautiful. Acts of reverence and repentence were stripped out or diminished. 2.B Many references to Our Lady, The Apostles, Martyrs, St. John the Baptist, St. Michael the Archangel, etc. The prayers of this Liturgy provide for a much more reverent, transcendent and dignified context in which to offer the Holy Sacrifice. The Tridentine is a fuller expression of the Church's theology of the Liturgy and of Catholic Theology in general. It also emphasizes more the true nature of the Mass as a Sacrifice and the reality of the Communion of Saints, our unity in worship with the Angels and Saints and our participation in the Heavenly Liturgy. This is just the beginning of why I prefer the Tridentine Liturgy. Of course liberals would critique certain aspects of it because they have their own "new" theology of the Liturgy. But I try to go by official Church teachings and the Sacred Tradition. For some these days the Mass is more about a community gathering than about participating in Christ's oblation that we might offer to the God of Glory and Majesty, worship that is pleasing and acceptable in Spirit and in Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 Well - Put Laudate, I have argued on the Objective superiority of beauty of the Tridentine Rite myself. Thank you for your kind comments and the willingness to help me with the poll. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Your welcome. I should note however, that while I prefer the Tridentine Mass (for various reasons), the Church, in Her wisdom, has reasons for the novus ordo and it does have a kind of beauty of it's own (when celebrated properly) so I think one should be careful when comparing the two Liturgies because the standard of one does not necessarily apply to the other, this principle would be true in a comparison between the Tridentine and Byzantine Liturgies. It is also still in an early developmental stage. I heard it was approved in it's pretty bare bones state because it's intended to develop or something. I think some of the recent documents from the Vatican on the Liturgy are hopeful signs in this regard. I'm hoping that someday the Communion rail makes a come back. There are prayers from the Tridentine Mass that I wish they would put into the Novus Ordo, like the Judica Me at the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) Perhaps we should think about reviving the tradition of pulling a curtain around the sanctuary at the time of consecration....j/k I'm all for the curtain! I love the Iconostasis of Eastern Churches. It's a beautiful, mysterious thing and since ecumenism is so big why not do something to express a little more unity with the East, especially since it was a part of our Tradition at one point. Perhaps it was lost during the periods of excessive private Masses where a curtain would be extraneous? Edited January 22, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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