Blind Obedience Is A Bad Thing

[Budge]

by the way, it isnt just Catholics guilty of it, but all the Muslims who go out and riot at the drop of a hat or at the demand of one of their leaders. I also put those who ignore all the dastardly corrupt deeds at the heights of government in America into this category as well.


I went and got a Bible and learned the truth while in the Catholic church. Then once I knew Gods truth, I left. Before that time, even too much was bothering me. I knew the Catholic clergy was teaching falsehoods. My UU past even alerted me to things some may not have picked up on. I wasnt going to shut off my brain and sit in the pew.

All too often, I remember being told "DONT LOOK" over being told to compare and learn. When a religion or any other other organization has to HIDE things from people, then thats a problem.

This is a teaching of the antichrist, zombie followers who dont use their minds to judge or even test things by the Word of God. Satan will use this to his own end when millions are led to the Antichrist and Catholicism isnt the only path, plenty of other false religions also teach this blind obedience.


Where is the relationship to God in shut off minds, and closed down hearts, where you folks KNOW you are IGNORING so much, where you know you are following leaders that are going to lead you into the ditch.

I believe many people here are afraid. They are afraid to step out, and TAKE A LOOK at their church and read Gods Word and take responsiblity for themselves and obeying God. It is easier to let others take the responsiblity and follow them no matter what.

Right now the Catholic Church teaches obedience to men even above obedience to God. This is why so many priests were silent during the sex scandals [except the rare ones we have profiled] This is why the bishops and rest remain silent as the Catholic Church travels down the road to the New Age.

As the Catholic Church morphs into the Revelation 17 church, it now teaches unquestioning obedience to men. To deal with this many Catholics in the pews ignore them and try to reconcile their own consciences to a system that forces them to be hypocrites. Others live lives of legalism and guilt. Gods will is ignored. Men are put up on pedestals while every commandment in the Bible is broken over and over, and the reaction is SILENCE.
MAGISTERIUMS are elevated to places of no accountability and where blind obedience is taught.

Does God want free and intelligent men and women who love Him or people who have shut their minds off and become unquestioning slaves to men?

Notice how these two ideas contradict?
[size=5]
"Obedience, the sure way. Blind obedience to your superior."--St. Josemaria Escriva, The Way, 941.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[/size]

[cmotherofpirl]

Considering most of my fundie and baptist and evangelical friends HANG on their dear pastors every word and treat him like God on earth [ idol worship anyone??] ...
We are a bit more realistic about human nature, and also know God can work thru frail human vessels all the time.

Catholics have the advantage of 2000 years of scholarship as a base, and don't have to reinvent the wheel. I can look up definitions and interpretations and opinons that have been handed down since the time of the Apostles. Since newer groups have cut themselves off from scholarship and distrust anything that requires more than three syllables, intelligent minds lost there are in a quandary. All the newer little groups simply are wandering around arguing in the dark, without any history or background to claim as their own. You can't read church history, since its related to the Church, aren't capable of forming a coherent theology unrelated to us, so no wonder you spend all our time attacking us.

Why don't you try being pro-Christ for awhile, instead of being anti-catholic? Or is hate all you are capable of? Someone is going to be proud to claim you when you meet your end, it might not be who you think.
THIS is part of the test at the end, what will be your grade?


Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

[Budge]

I dont.

and the ones who do are wrong as well.

You are right this can happen in churches as whole.

I have disagreed with my pastor before, quite openly, went and told him directly We worked it out in a biblical fashion , but blind obedience is not present in my church. I refuse to attend any church that teaches this.

In my church, one can disagree with the pastor, and he actually preaches from the pulpit for us to test everything he preaches via Gods Word. He is a humble man. He fully admits his foibles. I do not see him as elevated above other people, he may have the blessing of being called to be a church pastor, I know he is an ordinary guy. This isnt so true for Catholics who are utterly trained that their priests, are better then them.

Also remember in evangelical chruches the clergy are not elevated to a position where they are nearly unreachable, and where they live seperate lives that have little in common with the normal person's life. We are not burdened with the false teaching of [i]in Christus persona[/i], we know our pastors are normal guys, that if one lives in a small enough town, you run into him while grocery shopping and pumping gas...weirdly I never saw the priest doing any of these normal domestic activities where I would run into church pastors at least several times a year.

[cmotherofpirl]

I have freely disagreed with my pastor as well, and I certainly see him quite often at the local Giant Eagle. I also see him at all the nursing homes and the local hospitals as well.

[Budge]

Ive seen my pastor at the hospital and he goes to the nursing home for an entire day every week.

I know there are priests who do that stuff, wont deny that.

So what did you disagree with your priest about?

Before I left years ago, I had a 2 and half hour discussion on Bible Prophecy with my last priest.
heheheheheh

{he knew I was on my way out}

[cmotherofpirl]

We had a procedural disagreement over something at the school.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

Notice how these two ideas contradict?
[size=5]
"Obedience, the sure way. Blind obedience to your superior."--St. Josemaria Escriva, The Way, 941.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[/size]
[/quote]


They don't contradict necessarily. The full quote is:

"Obedience, the sure way. Blind obedience to your superior, the way of sanctity. Obedience in your apostolate, the only way: for, in a work of God, the spirit must obey or leave." The quote, which is found under the section "The Apostle" indicates obedience to God, of all, those in positions of leadership and those under them.

"Bear in mind, my son, that you're not just a soul who has joined other souls in order to do a good thing. That's a lot, but it's still little. You are the apostle, carrying out an imperative command of Christ."

Christ, in and through scripture also commands the obedience to tradition and to the Apostles. The scriptures attest that the Apostles were especially given powers of binding and loosing that others did not have, as well as spiritual gifts that others do not have. St. Paul also indicated anyone ignoring tradition should be shunned. Those in the two biblical offices are, indeed, elevated above members of the congregation in their roles. This is natural, and there is nothing wrong with it. There needs to be leadership in any organization or chaos will ensue.

And yet again we need to consider the fuller context of St. Escriva, his culture and who he was speaking to, as well as what he, the author, was trying to convey, not our immediate impressions of this, or any sentence. To ingore these basic principles in scripture would be fatal, so they are also good principles to abide by in other various types of literature.

Continue your work trying to reach these Catholics. Simply do not make the basic logical errors that are seen here and elsewhere in many of your posts, for you will be all the more convincing.

[N/A Gone]

wouldnt one argue that you have blind obedience to your autonomistic understanding of scripture?That you blindly feel that you can interpret and have truth that the majority of christians differ with you on, yet you are correct? Isnt that blind obedience? Why do you believe in scripture as an authority budge? Scripture doesnt declare itself that way?Heck, the book of mormon and the korean both do. Maybe they have the authority using that method? How do you acknowledge scriptural authority without saying that you were simply raised with it? Catholics can say that using the bible as a historical book we see the makings of an authoritative body, and that authoritative body using its authority teaches that the Bible is authorative. hmmm...you dont have that. Even Luther spoke about feeling a draw the the Church because we gave him scripture

not to insult you ma'am, that is not my desire. I am just curious. I did get an A in protestant Biblical Criticism, but the base arguments were straw to me. (i did my final on the difference in protestant/catholic canon.)

[Justified Saint]

Blind obedience is the nature of the gospel (whatever kind of obedience is there?)

Christians are called to unconditionally follow Jesus and where that road leads no one knows. They are called to carry the cross even to the point of death. This requires radical obedience and loyalty and that doesn't sit too well with our materialistic culture and I suspect many Christians too.

JPTP,

Thank you for your comments. You remind us that there are plenty of honest Protestants out there even if they be in very (very) short supply here! At least you are one of them!

Edited September 17, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Budge]

[quote]
And yet again we need to consider the fuller context of St. Escriva, his culture and who he was speaking to, as well as what he, the author, was trying to convey, not our immediate impressions of this, or any sentence. To ingore these basic principles in scripture would be fatal, so they are also good principles to abide by in other various types of literature.
[/quote]

Ive read the entire THE WAY.

Escriva basically comes from the assumption the SUPERIOR is always going to be acting on God's behalf and does teach blind obedience.

In fact obedience is one of the biggest things promoted in Opus Dei.
[quote]
[size=4]"Opus Dei silences critical minds. Monsignor Escriva used to say, 'I don't want great brains in the Work, because they turn into swelled heads. Average intelligences, if they are docile and faithful, are very effective[/size].' An engineer, banker, or scientist tends to have fewer problems with superiors in the Work than humanists, philosophers, or theologians, who are almost always frustrated within the Work. As soon as someone--who may even be a priest--is outstanding in the field of philosophy or theology, Opus Dei will almost certainly end by silencing him…He frequently ends up by leaving the institution or becomes the patient of a psychiatrist. Opus Dei does not let you think nor engage in speculation."--Maria del Carmen Tapia, Beyond the Threshold, Continuum (1998)[/quote]

[quote]wouldnt one argue that you have blind obedience to your autonomistic understanding of scripture?[/quote]

I read scripture and can see what it says, it is not the great mystery you make it out to be. Most cults simply ignore the DIRECT commands and teachings of scripture, I include Mormons and JWs among that crowd.

You are under this false assumption that scripture is not understandable. Read it, study it, it more then is.

[quote]Why do you believe in scripture as an authority budge?[/quote]

Via faith and the Holy Spirit. I remember the day I picked up a Bible after I had turned my life over to Christ.

Gods Word is pure. and

this verse may explain to you why I believe it. I personally know the power of Gods Word...
[font="Arial Black"]
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/font]


There is nothing wrong with total obedience in God...blind obedience to men, always leads somewhere bad.

[Justified Saint]

Except that total obedience to Christ's Church is not total obedience to men. What is much more scary is the total obedience some people have to their own delusions about what the word of God is -- those are called fundamentalists.

[Budge]

[quote]Except that total obedience to Christ's Church is not total obedience to men.[/quote]

You believe total obedience to the Vatican and its men...The Magisterium is the same as obedience to God, this is where you are wrong.
[quote]
What is much more scary is the total obedience some people have to their own delusions about what the word of God is -- those are called fundamentalists.[/quote]

All I have to do is read it and study it. Youre the one lost in the dark thinking it is impossible to understand.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1065133' date='Sep 17 2006, 12:01 PM']
All I have to do is read it and study it. Youre the one lost in the dark thinking it is impossible to understand.
[/quote]

Nobody said it was impossible to understand, only impossible to fully understand or through it to somehow be able to command God's will. Fundamentalists think they speak God's will and thus any course of action is jusitfied. This is why sola Scriptura is such a bad philosophy, its patent idolatry.

[Budge]

[quote]only impossible to fully understand[/quote]

Why

Theyve told you that so youll follow them.

Thats what it comes down to.

They have you convinced scripture is impossible to GET.

I remember thinking the same thing while I was in Catholic school.

it is a total lie.

As for courses of action.

Those can be checked via the bible.

Apostles asked Jesus if they could call down pillars of fire on thsoe who refused gospel.

Jesus rebuked them.

Ie dont call down pillars of fire on unbelievers and go conquer them...

Apostles were told to wear a sword while out in the world preaching.

Self defense is ok.

Theres all sorts of answers like those in the Bible.

[Justified Saint]

Hate to break it to you, but you can't fit God's mind into yours (especially yours). Sorry, just had to. :

As long as you think the Bible is the sole source of truth, you are an idolater.