Well We Never Gave Trent Her Crusade

[desertwoman]

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[RezaMikhaeil]

What about the fact that Coptic Orthodox Christians were persecuted by the Crusades and the Islamic Invaders? I'm not saying that the Crusades might not have began on the right foot and did have an initial purpose but later got out of hand. Several of our Saints relics were destroyed and some were captured during the Roman Crusades. Lots of our people were killed by the Roman Crusades and the Muslim invaders.

Also Egypt was conquered by Muslims, yet it definately didn't destroy the church. The entire 3rd century [before St. Constantine] was consumed by the persecution of The Church, by Saints offering themselves [without fear] to the blade of paganism, and fighting Diocletian [and others] with the truth [Word] of Jesus Christ but not with the Sword, through other means. Even St. George and St. Mina [warriors] that had the means to fight back, didn't fight back in the physical but in the spiritual.

Reza

[Diamond]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064769' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:05 AM']
It is not your role to take justice into your own hands. If someone has vandalized your Church or harassed your parish, then let the police know. Civil security is their domain.

Again, we need to listen to the Vicar of Christ, and not our corrupt minds born of misguided zeal and not genuine religion.
[/quote]

I agree. Justice is not ours to enforce. The Lord will judge.

Love is our business.

The original post seems to suggest that the Christ just didn't have the "balls" to stand up to the Roman Empire.

Catholics, as followers of Peter, might benefit from taking heed of the words the Lord spoke to him: "Put your sword away!"

[Aloysius]

The Crusades were sent out with very just cause. Their actions against the Orthodox, however, were not just. Part of the very reason the crusades were sent out were to help the orthodox (specifically Byzantium under seige from turkish muslims). There was an idea that unity could be re-established at the same time; come to the rescue of the orthodox and re-unite with them. But crusaders got overzealous and, greviously, did stuff like sacking Constantinople and harming the Coptic Orthodox. That's a grevious fact of history that no one really glories in.

but this stuff about "put your sword away" and "what about how the Church grew without war?" is nonsense. The same Christ who said "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" also said "if you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". one is not to live by the sword, but to use it to defend the innocent is a good and holy thing. when Christendom and Byzantium alike were threatened, it was a good and holy thing to defend it; to drive the muslims off the Iberian Peninsula, to keep the muslims from conquering all of Europe.

sure, we could've allowed Europe to fall like Egypt did, and lived underground. You think the whole world would know of Christ by now if we did? Some persecuted sect in the middle east, north africa, and europe? Latin America would've been colonized muslim; the major wheelings and dealings of the last few centuries would have been made by European Muslims; the name of Mohammad would be more well known world-wide than the name of Christ.

make no mistake: God desired to make use of the Crusades to save Europe from the same fate as Byzantium and North Africa. Yes, under muslim rule the largely Christian population of Egypt survived; except that they became second class citizens and because of that were largely wiped out by the plague making Egypt have a muslim majority. the same thing would've happened in Europe; Christianity would be underground; a minority, that would've never spread accross the world.

Now I have full faith in providence, but I also have full faith that God uses men in his providence and that God willed the Crusades for that purpose. I can say "Christianity wouldn't have spread without the crusades" because I believe the crusades to have been part of God's providence, and thus I am saying "Christinaity would not have spread without God's providence"

The time of persecution pre-Constantine was certainly the seed of the Church. But without Constantine's sword, it wouldn't have spread accross the world, it wouldn't have been made available to the masses. In the same way: without the swords of the Crusades Europe would've been conquered just like North Africa and the Near East and Christianity would've been powerless to spread the gospel to the masses of the world.

[hyperdulia again]

I miss Don and Winnie and Kilroy