Well We Never Gave Trent Her Crusade

[Akalyte]

[img]http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/julius2.jpg[/img]

Pope Julius II

1443-1513


Born Giuliano Della Rovere, Julius was the nephew of Pope Sixtus IV, who built the Sistine Chapel. Although his relationship to Sixtus helped his early career, he was forced to flee Italy to avoid assassination attempts ordered by Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI), and stayed in exile for ten years before Borgia's death made it possible for him to return.

As pope, Julius became one of the most powerful rulers of the Renaissance, and he was more concerned with political matters than theological ones. He became known as "the warrior pope" and il papa terribile, and worked hard to restore and preserve the Papal States and led military efforts to hold off the encroaching forces of France. When defecting cardinals threatened another schism, he called the Fifth Lateran Council, and overturned another military coup with the help of Swiss troops.

Though he was enormously successful in keeping Italy together politically and militarily, Julius is perhaps best known as a patron of the arts. He is particularly remembered for his patronage of Raphael, who painted his private rooms at the Vatican, and Michelangelo, who completed the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel barely a year before the pope's death.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1064609' date='Sep 16 2006, 11:14 PM']
Go to Saudi Arabia, stand on a street, say Jesus Christ outloud.

You will be in jail within the hour.
[/quote]
I've been there and done that.

Didn't go to jail.

[Budge]

[quote]
I've been there and done that.

Didn't go to jail.[/quote]

Must not have been any cops around.

[url="http://washingtontimes.com/world/20051114-015138-3548r.htm"]FLOGGING FOR DISCUSSING THE BIBLE[/url]
[quote]
Bibles found in the possession of visitors to Saudi Arabia are routinely confiscated by customs officials, and in some cases copies allegedly have been put through a paper shredder, according to religious rights campaigners.

Reports from the Islamic world of the abuse of Bibles and other items important to Christians emerge from time to time, but generally have little impact - in contrast to the wave of Muslim anger sparked by a Newsweek report, since retracted, of Koran desecration by the U.S. military.

"The Muslims respect the Koran far more than Christians respect the Bible," says Danny Nalliah, a Sri Lankan-born evangelical pastor now based in Australia.

During the 1990s, Nalliah spent two years in Saudi Arabia, where he was deeply involved with the underground church.

"It's a very well-known fact that if you have a Bible at customs when you enter the airport, and if they find the Bible, that the Bible is taken and put in the shredder," he said in an interview this week.
[size=5]
"If you have more than one Bible you will be taken into custody, and if you have a quantity of Bibles you will be given 70 lashes for sure - you could even be executed."[/size][/quote]

[url="http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/082943.php"]LINK[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1064897' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:04 AM']
I almost replied with the same arguments except:

Our Lady of Fatima said to pray for the conversion of Russia...and I am sure that JPII's prayers played a huge role in the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe that prayers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (In union with Rome) as well as prayers of people everywhere were monumental. Prayer can not be overlooked; although the US WAS bankrupting the Soviet Union, this could have been a result of Christian prayer. The result of the election of 1980 was only possible because of huge Christian revivals. Oh, and Carter's presidential incompetence. I believe that US foreign policies during the 1980's were a direct result of Christian prayer and action.
[/quote]
The Ukrainian Catholic Church is in union with Rome , not the Ukrainian Orthodox, but aside from that I don't think we disagree too much. I do not dismiss the power of prayer or JPII's role in the Fall of the Soviet Union, but to say that he defeated them "without firing a shot" is simply dishonest a great deal of blood was shed all over the world to defeat the Communist, in the 80"s as well, and Regans policy of spending them into destruction cannot be unplayed. Again I do not dismiss prayer, I simply see that God works within the world the Soviet Unions collapse was Wonderful in the true since of the word, but it was not a Miracle.

[Era Might]

St. Thomas addressed clerics engaging in violence:

[quote]Now warlike pursuits are altogether incompatible with the duties of a bishop and a cleric, for two reasons. The first reason is a general one, because, to wit, warlike pursuits are full of unrest, so that they hinder the mind very much from the contemplation of Divine things, the praise of God, and prayers for the people, which belong to the duties of a cleric. Wherefore just as commercial enterprises are forbidden to clerics, because they unsettle the mind too much, so too are warlike pursuits, according to 2 Tim. 2:4: "No man being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular business." The second reason is a special one, because, to wit, all the clerical Orders are directed to the ministry of the altar, on which the Passion of Christ is represented sacramentally, according to 1 Cor. 11:26: "As often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until He come." Wherefore it is unbecoming for them to slay or shed blood, and it is more fitting that they should be ready to shed their own blood for Christ, so as to imitate in deed what they portray in their ministry. For this reason it has been decreed that those who shed blood, even without sin, become irregular. Now no man who has a certain duty to perform, can lawfully do that which renders him unfit for that duty. Wherefore it is altogether unlawful for clerics to fight, because war is directed to the shedding of blood.

--Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 40

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304002.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304002.htm[/url][/quote]

Edited September 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064900' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:06 AM']
Ok. What Pope and/or Bishop from these Ecumenical Councils strapped on a breastplate, took up a sword, and went out to chop heads?
[/quote]


You want a list of popes and bishops that physically fought. Okay, I'll get you one soon enough. Traditionally bishops and priest used maces or clubs, not swords. Swords draw blood, maces and clubs technically speaking, do not.

Off the top of my head Bishop Odo , and Pope Julius II both physically fought, though they fought other Christians. Bishop Odo rallied the Normans at Hastings and is even pictured on the Bayeux tapestry fighting. If you want a list of Bishops known to fight I will have to get back to you, I have to write a paper.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1065087' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:08 PM']
St. Thomas addressed clerics engaging in violence:
[/quote]


While I love Thomas Aquinus He is not "The Church" and frankly niether are Clerics, Though they have fought, they Church has been directed to fight by the Magestirum, saying that this is not " The Church engauging in war" is like saying the US doesn't engage in War because the President doesn't hop in a fighter jet with the Speaker of the house as his wing man and go fight.

[Era Might]

The Bishop of Rome was a civil ruler, and as such, had a role in the defense of civil society, including military force.

Contrary to what you are claiming, that was NEVER confused with the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. This confusion of divine power and temporal power has been redressed by the Church long since, which is why the Second Vatican Council, and subsequent Roman Pontiffs, have emphasized the rightful autonomy of the civil and religious spheres.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Budge]

The problem with Rome is a HISTORY of following man's ways--WAR, POWER TRIPS, CORRUPTION, rather then going out and preaching the gospel. If all the energy had been given to actually preaching the gospel in Muslim lands instead of trying to conquer them and play kumbuyah, the world may be in a better place.

Even this talk of a new crusade sickens me, like thats going to fix anything for the better in the era of bombs that can destroy the world 10 times over. We are a little past the time of the knights guys....think about it. What is violence going to do but bolster the Muslims more into a world war?

But sigh...I know whats going to happen, this world is going to get worse, and Jesus Himself told us this...

[size=4]Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/size]

Catholics you better take your hope out of this world and its false leaders and religious dictators, and put it in Jesus Christ.

[Era Might]

Ah, forget it. It's Sunday.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1065113' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:37 PM']
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
[/quote]


On this we can and do agree.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Budge' post='1065103' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:24 PM']
The problem with Rome is a HISTORY of following man's ways--WAR, POWER TRIPS, CORRUPTION, rather then going out and preaching the gospel. If all the energy had been given to actually preaching the gospel in Muslim lands instead of trying to conquer them and play kumbuyah, the world may be in a better place.

Even this talk of a new crusade sickens me, like thats going to fix anything for the better in the era of bombs that can destroy the world 10 times over. We are a little past the time of the knights guys....think about it. What is violence going to do but bolster the Muslims more into a world war?

But sigh...I know whats going to happen, this world is going to get worse, and Jesus Himself told us this...

[size=4]Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/size]

Catholics you better take your hope out of this world and its false leaders and religious dictators, and put it in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

It is in Jesus Christ. At least it should be. Everything leads to Christ in our Church..

[Budge]

The interfaith movement doesnt.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1065103' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:24 PM']
The problem with Rome is a HISTORY of following man's ways--WAR, POWER TRIPS, CORRUPTION, rather then going out and preaching the gospel. If all the energy had been given to actually preaching the gospel in Muslim lands instead of trying to conquer them and play kumbuyah, the world may be in a better place.

Even this talk of a new crusade sickens me, like thats going to fix anything for the better in the era of bombs that can destroy the world 10 times over. We are a little past the time of the knights guys....think about it. What is violence going to do but bolster the Muslims more into a world war?

But sigh...I know whats going to happen, this world is going to get worse, and Jesus Himself told us this...

[size=4]Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/size]

Catholics you better take your hope out of this world and its false leaders and religious dictators, and put it in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Well, honestly, how long have evanglical/pentecostals been around? A couple of centuries?
The first couple of centuries were pretty good for us, too.
Once your brand gets out of diapers, get back to me.

[Budge]

According to the catholic church's "version" of history.

Christians have always been around.