KnightofChrist Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1064862' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:44 AM'] John Paul already led his own crusade against communism, and he didn't need a single weapon to bring the enmy down. [/quote] Communist did not believe (in) God, was telling them to take over the world and kill all the Christians, and Jews, or anyone that is not in Islam. Jihadist do not want peace with us, they "worship death", they wish to kill or convert us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick777 Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) [quote]I disagree. The Church is never going to call for a crusade, but just hypothetically speaking here, I believe that if the Jihadists did something extreme (like assasinated the Pope) and the next Pope called for it, you would see a militia of millions eagerly awaiting orders. And there are plenty of Catholic countries who would be willing to supply arms.[/quote] I don't think it would only be Catholic men either. Edited September 17, 2006 by Rick777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) Commies didnt get into killing themselves to kill others... Edited September 17, 2006 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1064871' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:49 AM'] I disagree. The Church is never going to call for a crusade, but just hypothetically speaking here, I believe that if the Jihadists did something extreme (like assasinated the Pope) and the next Pope called for it, you would see a militia of [b]millions [/b] eagerly awaiting orders. And there are plenty of Catholic countries who would be willing to supply arms. [/quote] You think so? I guess I just don't consider any modern European governments as Catholic governments. Anyway, I see a modern crusade as nothing but Rwanda on an even more massive scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 17, 2006 Author Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1064847' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:34 AM'] Don John, Your post passes over too many distinctions and nuance. For example, you cite an "infallible council" as if the fact that a Council dealt with something infallibly means everything it says is infallible. From the Catholic Encyclopedia: Besides that, most Ecumenical Councils dealt with dogmatic questions, and also with discipline and governance of the Church, which is under no divine guarantee of effectiveness or surety. Also, Pope Benedict recently addressed historical religious violence on the 20th anniversary of the gatherings in Assisi: The Holy Father specifically separates the Catholic religion from religious wars which have taken place in its name, because war is always a civil matter, not of the Church, even when they were justified in the name of Catholicism. War is not part of the Church, let alone comparable to transubstantiation. [/quote] Wow the quotation you cite SOOOO does not say what you claim it does. It most certianly does not say that war is always a civil matter, and I defy you to show me anything from the church which says it is. I have already cited doculment which directly say otherwise. And thank you I am well aware of the differance between disipline and dogma, however the 4th Laterian declared that the vow to go on Crusade was indeed a religious one and that renigging on such a vow was punishable by Excommunication and Interdict--- of course this is not withstanding the standard declaration that those who fullfilled the vow would recieve remission of their sins. I think this is a bit more than a mere issue of discipline. But really my intent was not to argue the nuances of infallability but to show that your previous statment "The Church does not engage in war." was in fact incorrect the Church in the body of Ecuminical Councils does certianly engage in war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='thedude' post='1064876' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:51 AM'] You think so? I guess I just don't consider any modern European governments as Catholic governments. Anyway, I see a modern crusade as nothing but Rwanda on an even more massive scale. [/quote] Even Austria's Muslim population is quickly growing.... It would be Rwanda all over again, neither side's soldiers would really be contained by their officers. Soldiers would do pretty much anything they wanted, killing civilians left and right because of paranoia. That being said, I would still fight if the Church called for a Crusade (I really doubt that would ever happen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 17, 2006 Author Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1064862' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:44 AM'] John Paul already led his own crusade against communism, and he didn't need a single weapon to bring the enmy down. [/quote] Thats a nice thought but it completly neglects the historical realities of the end of the Cold War, we were fighting all sorts of covert little wars with the Soviets, and we were bankrupting them with an arms race they could never keep up with, all the while beaming commercals into there territory to flaunt our material wealth and appeal to the citizens greed. JPII was only a very small part of the Fall of communism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='thedude' post='1064876' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:51 AM'] Anyway, I see a modern crusade as nothing but Rwanda on an even more massive scale. [/quote] I agree in the sense that the Jihadists would like to exterminate us. We are on the defensive here and if they start killing Popes and nuking cities what do you expect to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 It's like signing a death certificate for Christians in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='thedude' post='1064895' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:02 AM'] It's like signing a death certificate for Christians in the middle east. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1064889' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:57 AM'] Thats a nice thought but it completly neglects the historical realities of the end of the Cold War, we were fighting all sorts of covert little wars with the Soviets, and we were bankrupting them with an arms race they could never keep up with, all the while beaming commercals into there territory to flaunt our material wealth and appeal to the citizens greed. JPII was only a very small part of the Fall of communism. [/quote] I almost replied with the same arguments except: Our Lady of Fatima said to pray for the conversion of Russia...and I am sure that JPII's prayers played a huge role in the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe that prayers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (In union with Rome) as well as prayers of people everywhere were monumental. Prayer can not be overlooked; although the US WAS bankrupting the Soviet Union, this could have been a result of Christian prayer. The result of the election of 1980 was only possible because of huge Christian revivals. Oh, and Carter's presidential incompetence. I believe that US foreign policies during the 1980's were a direct result of Christian prayer and action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1064878' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:53 AM']But really my intent was not to argue the nuances of infallability but to show that your previous statment "The Church does not engage in war." was in fact incorrect the Church in the body of Ecuminical Councils does certianly engage in war.[/quote] Ok. What Pope and/or Bishop from these Ecumenical Councils strapped on a breastplate, took up a sword, and went out to chop heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) [quote name='thedude' post='1064895' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:02 AM'] It's like signing a death certificate for Christians in the middle east. [/quote] The fact that we are Christians, middle east or anywhere, is like signing our death cerificates in the eyes of the Jihadist. Or a big "kill me" sign on our backs. My point is this, Jihadist want us dead or converted, and not our peace. Jihadist can not be allowed to gain more power, they must be defeated. Now. Edited September 17, 2006 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 The Pope's role in the fall of communism, in fact, was huge. [quote]Lech Walesa, founder of the Solidarity movement that toppled communism in Poland in 1989-90, recalled the power of John Paul's visit to Warsaw in 1979. It was the first to his homeland after becoming pope a year earlier, and he ended Mass with a prayer for the Holy Spirit to "renew the face of the Earth," words that became a rallying cry. "We know what the pope has achieved. Fifty percent of the collapse of communism is his doing," Walesa told The Associated Press on Friday. "More than one year after he spoke these words, we were able to organize 10 million people for strikes, protests and negotiations. [url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152246,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152246,00.html[/url][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1064900' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:06 AM'] Ok. What Pope and/or Bishop from these Ecumenical Councils strapped on a breastplate, took up a sword, and went out to chop heads? [/quote] There was a Pope who did lead a army into battle strapped with a breatplate and took up a sword, and protected and defended Christendom. Anyone recall his name? Are there more Popes who did the same? [quote name='Era Might' post='1064905' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:11 AM'] The Pope's role in the fall of communism, in fact, was huge. [/quote] I completely agree with you Era, on this. So was Reagan's role... and Thatcher's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now