Well We Never Gave Trent Her Crusade

[Laudate_Dominum]

what about Catholic commandos, or something like the Jedi order? I like the idea of Catholic Jedi Knights who are elite warriors sworn to protect the Pope.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064813' date='Sep 17 2006, 12:56 AM']
Does a crusade in the present situation fit these guidelines? I tend to think it does not. I think it would cause way more problems and perhaps not solve any.
[/quote]

Have you researched the Worldwide Jihadist Holy War?

[Era Might]

[Edited by Moderator: Inappropriate content]

*Sorry Holy Father. Please don't excommunicate me. It's all in good fun.*

:

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think it would be destructive well beyond proportion and have little or no chance of defeating what is basically an underground minority group. Era is correct to point out that at the time of the crusades, the Pope's call was taken up by nations (and I doubt any current nation would take this crusade up). Islam is no longer the more centralized unit it was in the middle ages either.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064817' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:01 AM']
The very first principle makes clear who is being spoken of: nations. Christians are not a nation, they're a religion. America is a nation. Israel is a nation. Great Britain is a nation. Christians are members of those nations. [/quote]


Vatican City is a nation... each and every Catholic Church is like a embassy, and embassies are part of the Nations they belong too.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064817' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:01 AM']
It is the civil authority of these nations which have responsibility for the common good, including any possible recourse to war. Christians have no right to start a crusade or a war. What we think of as a "crusade" was not a bunch of Christians getting together on their own authority to fight off an enemy. It was a corporate act of the civil authorities, among whom was the Bishop of Rome.[/quote]

Christendom does have a right to defend Herself.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064817' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:01 AM']
The Bishop of Rome has long since given up any interference in the civil sphere. Hence, the Church is not in anway involved in war.
[/quote]

The Pope if, that is if he has "given up" any so-called "interference in the civil sphere" he may pick that idea up again, when Catholic Deaths cause by Jihadist start to mount and mount.

Speaking of "interference in the civil sphere", should The Pope apologize for his recent comments? As some [u]demand[/u]?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064752' date='Sep 17 2006, 12:51 AM']
There is nothing to misininterpret. With all due respect Just, I think you're the one who is ignoring the mind of the Church on this matter. I'm not trying to attack you, just saying as a brother. Take a step back and look at your attitude, and whether or not it really conforms to the message and exhortations from the Holy Father.
The past was the past. We do not live in the 12th century. The Holy Father knows this, and he knows that we must move far beyond violence in the name of God. If we don't take a stand, and we choose to convert with the sword, then all is lost, because we are supposed to be the salt of the earth. We will be no better than our enemies.
[/quote]


The past is not the past, the teaching of the magisterium does not just go away! The Trinity did not cease to exist simply because it was defined in the 4th century, likewise the rightousness of Crusade did not cease because of the flow of time. Infallable councils called repeatedly for Crusades, is the Transubstantiation questioned because it was defined in the 13th century? I will remind you that the very Council that defined it called for a Crusade. And Unam Sanctum makes it quite clear that the Church has recource to both the Spiritual sword and the Temporal sword. Firthermore that same Bull declares that all are subject to the roman Pontiff temporally as well as spiritually.

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff" That seems pretty simply the Pope defining in his role as a Pope, and not as a mere bishop or theologian.

The Church is Mother, mothers do not allow there children to be slaughtered, even an animal defends her young, how much more is expected of a human mother, how much more even than that is expected of a spiritual mother.

But you are right we do not live in the 12th century, no longer does a muslim army have to march through the country side to slay Christians, now a mere handfull can do the job just fine. As for doing something constructive--- there is absolutly nothing constructive about trying to work for understanding with the Mohammedians--- they are a universalist religion, a false religion. We are a universalist religion, the True religion, we are destined for conflict, and attempting to avoid that is only insulting them and Christ both. I have read the Koran and I have studied the history of the spread of Islam. They have no desire for peace, they are instructed to conquer us by their own Holy Book. Christ came not to bring Peace but to set us to conflict, only His Peace is truely peace, and attempts to bring a false peace dishonor Him and The Father who sent Him.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064825' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:12 AM']
I think it would be destructive well beyond proportion and have little or no chance of defeating what is basically an underground minority group. Era is correct to point out that at the time of the crusades, the Pope's call was taken up by nations (and I doubt any current nation would take this crusade up). Islam is no longer the more centralized unit it was in the middle ages either.
[/quote]
I'm not talking about a crusade, that's lame. I'm talking about something to supplement the Swiss Guard.

Like any important leader in today's world, the Pope needs protection. Why not have dudes in robes who know kung-fu and sword fighting, something like Jedi Knights but Catholics. I think it would be phat personally. They would be peace keepers not soldiers.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064825' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:12 AM']
I think it would be destructive well beyond proportion and have little or no chance of defeating what is basically an underground minority group. Era is correct to point out that at the time of the crusades, the Pope's call was taken up by nations (and I doubt any current nation would take this crusade up). Islam is no longer the more centralized unit it was in the middle ages either.
[/quote]

It is not "underground" Jihadist are very much standing right out in front, and in our faces. Would defending Christendom cause destruction? Yes of course, but you and Era are incorrect, it will be destructive well beyond proportion not to defend Christendom, and scream peace, when there is no peace.

You really should research The Holy War declared by the Jihadist, they are much more centralized than you may believe.

Edited September 17, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1064827' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:16 AM']
Speaking of "interference in the civil sphere", should The Pope apologize for his recent comments? As some [u]demand[/u]?
[/quote]
The Pope has nothing to apologize for. These muslim jerks who have been bashing the Pope unfairly need to actually read the speech, and get in touch with reality.
I've seen so much Jew hating, Catholic bashing, America demonizing on Arab tv its almost comical; but hey, that's cool right?

I just think its funny that they can have entire shows devoted to anti-semitism, but the second someone portrays Mohammed in a cartoon all hell breaks loose. Islam is nuts.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1064833' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:22 AM']
I'm not talking about a crusade, that's lame. I'm talking about something to supplement the Swiss Guard.

Like any important leader in today's world, the Pope needs protection. Why not have dudes in robes who know kung-fu and sword fighting, something like Jedi Knights but Catholics. I think it would be phat personally. They would be peace keepers not soldiers.
[/quote]
My post was actually not directed toward your idea, it just worked out that way chronologically! I think the idea is dope. The Vatican scientists should develop a slime to create a race of turtle-men to weild numchucks and bow staffs against wickedness, while staying obscure by dwelling in Roman sewer systems.

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064837' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:25 AM']
My post was actually not directed toward your idea, it just worked out that way chronologically! I think the idea is dope. The Vatican scientists should develop a slime to create a race of turtle-men to weild numchucks and bow staffs against wickedness, while staying obscure by dwelling in Roman sewer systems.
[/quote]

That would be awesome

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064821' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:06 AM']
[Edited by Moderator: Inappropriate content]

*Sorry Holy Father. Please don't excommunicate me. It's all in good fun.*

:
[/quote]
if you did that to a Muslim guy you'd be facing ritual beheading.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1064835' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:24 AM']
It is not "underground" Jihadist are very much standing right out in front, and in our faces. Would defending Christendom cause destruction? Yes of course, but you and Era are incorrect, it will be destructive well beyond proportion not to defend Christendom, and scream peace, when there is no peace.

You really should research The Holy War declared by the Jihadist, they are much more centralized than you may believe.
[/quote]
All I am saying is that a modern military crusade is impractical. No nation will take up this cause. The uproar in the middle east would be enormous. Can you imagine the chaos? It could make the mass murder of the 20th century look innocent.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064837' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:25 AM']
My post was actually not directed toward your idea, it just worked out that way chronologically! I think the idea is dope. The Vatican scientists should develop a slime to create a race of turtle-men to weild numchucks and bow staffs against wickedness, while staying obscure by dwelling in Roman sewer systems.
[/quote]
that's dope.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064787' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:22 AM']
If someone comes to blow up your Church, you are free to stop them.

You have no right to go around killing people in the name of vigilante self-defense. You are not a special ops soldier on a mission to take out a grand mufti. You're a private citizen. You have no authority to kill people in the name of civil law, let alone in the name of God almighty.

Leave the soldiering to those who have responsibility for the common good; the civil authorities.
[/quote]

There is no Just Authority i an Athiest State. All Authority comes from God not from "the people" no government which denies Him can have Authority. They have Power but not Authority. That arguement doesn't hold much weight coming from the traditional Western Catholic understanding of Authority. Furthermore, if natural authority does come from the people there is no magical definition of what number of people that might be, a dozen or so people certianly have as much right to wage war as do 12 million, assuming that all that is required to do so is concent of the group. No there is no reason that our government has any more right to send soldiers into battle than the principal down at your local elementary school does, there is no political organ with "Authority" in the Untied States( and certianly not the UN).