Carthusian Nuns

[Chiquitunga]

Hi! I was looking at this great site which a discussion on this forum last year lead me to: [url="http://www.angelfire.com/planet/morimond/charterhouse"]http://www.angelfire.com/planet/morimond/charterhouse[/url] . It's a great site on the Order. I was just posting on the Sisters of Bethlehem a few days ago. I read on this site that the Carthusian nuns have recreation twice a day, and wondered if any of you guys knew anymore information on them. I wonder if the information on the nuns on this site may be inaccurate, as it has more on the monks. It's hard to know a lot about them, as they are pretty hidden and do not allow retreatants, except if one is very seriously considering a vocation with them. Just wondering if any of you guys had been to one of the 5 monasteries in Europe. I once met a girl that lives in my state that was going there, but lost her information. I can also write to them directly. Thank you!

Edited September 17, 2006 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

Link to the home page of this site: [url="http://www.angelfire.com/planet/morimond/charterhouse/home.html"]http://www.angelfire.com/planet/morimond/c...house/home.html[/url]

[Guest Perpetualove]

I thought that perhaps I was called to Carthusian life (hence my interest in the Sisters of Bethlehem). I did write to one of the Monasteries in Europe - I believe it was one of the Charterhouses in Italy, and it was at the suggestion of the Father Prior of the Vermont Monastery here. I got a very nice letter back from the Mother Prioress. One must know the language completely before entrance or consideration, and while the letter was extremely nice, it was not the most encouraging. (Are you in the US???) I have to admit that I was very interested in the idea of "donation," though I did not ask about that in particular. For some reason, that greatly appeals to me in the same way that the Carthusian life as a whole appeals to me, and I don't know of any other order that allows such a practice.

Recently, I read "An Infinity of Little Hours" which I strongly recommend to ANYBODY interested in the Carthusian Life or spirituality. The Parkminster Charterhouse cooperated with the book, so it is an extraordinary look at their life. Of course, the movie "Into Great Silence" - which I have not seen - should also give one an extraordinary glimpse into their life. I must admit, dear Margaret Clare, that after reading this book, my thoughts of Carthusian life went away. I won't say more here, but I would be glad to PM you. My response was purely spiritual, and I don't want to ruin what I experienced in the event someone else - you, for instance - reads it. I believe it is best to allow others to come to their own decisions when God is involved. That all being said, I gave a copy to my Spiritual Director, who is a former Trappist priest. (He is still a priest, though in a different Community now.) He came to the same conclusion...interestingly enough!

I also joined the International Fellowship of St. Bruno - which after screening - allows those who are serious to learn more, and share in spiritual companionship. Through this, I have come to know (one personally), some former Carthusians. I did not know that the women in the Carthusian Order are still ordained as Deaconesses. I know, I didn't believe it, but I even looked in the Catholic Encyclopedia, and there it was...who knew??? Also, there has not been one American who has lasted in the Vermont Charterhouse, and I do not believe that speaks of the Charterhouse there, but rather the "pull" of the American culture.

I apologize for this long winded email! Please feel free to PM. And good luck...O Bonitas! Perpetualove

[Guest Perpetualove]

I thought that perhaps I was called to Carthusian life (hence my interest in the Sisters of Bethlehem). I did write to one of the Monasteries in Europe - I believe it was one of the Charterhouses in Italy, and it was at the suggestion of the Father Prior of the Vermont Monastery here. I got a very nice letter back from the Mother Prioress. One must know the language completely before entrance or consideration, and while the letter was extremely nice, it was not the most encouraging. (Are you in the US???) I have to admit that I was very interested in the idea of "donation," though I did not ask about that in particular. For some reason, that greatly appeals to me in the same way that the Carthusian life as a whole appeals to me, and I don't know of any other order that allows such a practice.

Recently, I read "An Infinity of Little Hours" which I strongly recommend to ANYBODY interested in the Carthusian Life or spirituality. The Parkminster Charterhouse cooperated with the book, so it is an extraordinary look at their life. Of course, the movie "Into Great Silence" - which I have not seen - should also give one an extraordinary glimpse into their life. I must admit, dear Margaret Clare, that after reading this book, my thoughts of Carthusian life went away. I won't say more here, but I would be glad to PM you. My response was purely spiritual, and I don't want to ruin what I experienced in the event someone else - you, for instance - reads it. I believe it is best to allow others to come to their own decisions when God is involved. That all being said, I gave a copy to my Spiritual Director, who is a former Trappist priest. (He is still a priest, though in a different Community now.) He came to the same conclusion...interestingly enough!

I also joined the International Fellowship of St. Bruno - which after screening - allows those who are serious to learn more, and share in spiritual companionship. Through this, I have come to know (one personally), some former Carthusians. I did not know that the women in the Carthusian Order are still ordained as Deaconesses. I know, I didn't believe it, but I even looked in the Catholic Encyclopedia, and there it was...who knew??? Also, there has not been one American who has lasted in the Vermont Charterhouse, and I do not believe that speaks of the Charterhouse there, but rather the "pull" of the American culture.

I apologize for this long winded email! Please feel free to PM. And good luck...O Bonitas! Perpetualove

[Chiquitunga]

From the Carthusian site:

"A Communion

Solitary life, whether in cell or in the obedience, protects and nourishes in our hearts the fire of divine love. This love unites us as the members of the same body.

This is a permanent reality; but we express it more visibly on Sundays and Solemnities, when gatherings are more frequent: the offices of Terce, Sext, and None are sung in church; we have a meal together in our refectory after Sext.

In addition, we come together for a colloquium. This latter is a friendly meeting in which, beginning with a text of Scripture, we have rather deep exchanges and we try to incorporate the fruit of these discussions into our lives.

Once a week we have another sisterly exchange in the form of a walk called ‘spatiamentum’ lasting about three hours, during the course of which each one is able to talk in turn with the others. Through these walks, souls are knitted together, the interior life flourishes, mutual affection is bolstered, and life in solitude is fortified."

I think probably the nuns do not have recreation twice a day as it said on the other site. It sounds like it is only Saturday/Sunday.


[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1064779' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:17 AM']
I thought that perhaps I was called to Carthusian life (hence my interest in the Sisters of Bethlehem). I did write to one of the Monasteries in Europe - I believe it was one of the Charterhouses in Italy, and it was at the suggestion of the Father Prior of the Vermont Monastery here ... [/quote]

Thanks Perpetualove! I am very interested in your insight! I was looking forever for the address I had of the one girl I met also from IL that visited a Carthusian monastery in France, but I could not find it. Her name was also Margaret. Yes, I am in the US. I am just west of Chicago. I will PM you. Thanks again!

Margaret

Edited September 17, 2006 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

Hey guys, I am searching for a certain site I found once with a CD available to buy of the Carthusian Nuns in Spain. I've searched the official site, but haven't found the link. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd greatly appreciate any help. Thanks!

The CD was called something like, Cantate .. It was Carthusian Gregorian chant sung by the nuns of the Charterhouse, or Cartuja de Santa Maria de Benifaçà.

Ah, ok I found it. It was the [url="http://www.parkminster.org.uk"]Parkminster site[/url]. They have a few other CDs of Carthusian chant as well. :j

Edited December 28, 2006 by Margaret Clare

[Emile James]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1065204' date='Sep 17 2006, 12:31 PM']
From the Carthusian site:

"A Communion

Solitary life, whether in cell or in the obedience, protects and nourishes in our hearts the fire of divine love. This love unites us as the members of the same body.

This is a permanent reality; but we express it more visibly on Sundays and Solemnities, when gatherings are more frequent: the offices of Terce, Sext, and None are sung in church; we have a meal together in our refectory after Sext.

In addition, we come together for a colloquium. This latter is a friendly meeting in which, beginning with a text of Scripture, we have rather deep exchanges and we try to incorporate the fruit of these discussions into our lives.

Once a week we have another sisterly exchange in the form of a walk called ‘spatiamentum’ lasting about three hours, during the course of which each one is able to talk in turn with the others. Through these walks, souls are knitted together, the interior life flourishes, mutual affection is bolstered, and life in solitude is fortified."

I think probably the nuns do not have recreation twice a day as it said on the other site. It sounds like it is only Saturday/Sunday.
Thanks Perpetualove! I am very interested in your insight! I was looking forever for the address I had of the one girl I met also from IL that visited a Carthusian monastery in France, but I could not find it. Her name was also Margaret. Yes, I am in the US. I am just west of Chicago. I will PM you. Thanks again!

Margaret
[/quote]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

hello, if you havent seen this already, perhaps this will help?
[url="http://www.chartreux.org/en/nuns/day.html"]http://www.chartreux.org/en/nuns/day.html[/url]

[url="http://www.chartreux.org/en/nuns/NUN.HTM"]http://www.chartreux.org/en/nuns/NUN.HTM[/url]

[url="http://www.chartreux.org/en/frame.html"]http://www.chartreux.org/en/frame.html[/url]

I Pray our God may give you His Grace and peace hear, to know then to do His holy will....
Emile.
[img]http://www.chartreux.org/maisons/Benifaca/big/IMG0068.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.chartreux.org/maisons/Trinita/44_013-IMGP1052.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.chartreux.org/maisons/Trinita/46_018-M-Ang-caldaia.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.chartreux.org/maisons/Trinita/42_011-IMGP1045.jpg[/img]

[Laurentina1975]

are they sspx?

[Emile James]

[quote name='Laurentina1975' post='1151342' date='Dec 28 2006, 10:06 PM']
are they sspx?
[/quote]
umm who? the Carthusian Nuns..?? no, not at all, their are not even any SSPX Communities i can think of that are similar. Though the Carthusians have a Rite of there own, that made some changes during Vatican II, but as far as i know the only Carthusian Communities that have complete Latin as Liturgical language and priest facing east are the Grande Chartruese in French Alps, and the wonderful Carthusian monks in Slovenia...most other Carthusian convents/monasteries use a majority vernacular. The one in Spain the priest faces the Community, for example...
there a a good amount of Traditional Monasteries- Convents like here at,[url="http://abbaye.nda.internetologis.com/viedesmoniales.htlm.html"]La barroux-Nuns[/url]for example [url="http://www.barroux.org/"]or the Monks,[/url] ,that are very Traditional within the Church, even Celebrating the 'Tridentine' Rite and living a Pre-Vatican II monastic lifestyle, but are not SSPX, and are in full Communion with Rome.

in peace of Christ, Emile-James.
[img]http://inillotempore.com/blog/images/Barroux_elevation_of_the_chalice.jpg[/img]
[img]http://docteurangelique.free.fr/images/barroux.JPG[/img]
la Barroux Monastery, France

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Emile James' post='1150859' date='Dec 28 2006, 09:36 AM']
I Pray our God may give you His Grace and peace hear, to know then to do His holy will....
Emile. [/quote]Thank you, Emile James! Yes, I have seen the official site of the Carthusian Order. The Italian Charterhouse especially has a lot of nice pictures. Here's another of a novice in Spain:

[img]http://www.chartreux.org/maisons/Benifaca/big/IMG0069.jpg[/img]

Edited January 1, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

Here is something I found online written by a Subdeacon, Paul Feeney, a member of the Carthusian webhermit group. (I'm not sure what this is, I'm cutting and pasting here. But this information sounds credible.) It concerns how the Carthusian Order changed after the Second Vatican Council. I really like the last line. :j The nuns are mentioned in the last couple paragraphs.
------------------------------------------------
[quote]
Dear Carthusian Spirits in Christ,

Glory Forever to Jesus Christ!

1. The Basic structure of the Carthusian Life changed very little. There was really nothing that could be changed without destroying the Carthusian Life. The Pope and the Congregation for Religious were well aware of that, and worked to maintain the integrity of the Carthusian Life. The Liturgy Congregation was not as accommodating and had its own ideas about how the Carthusian Rite needed to be "updated". Fortunately, the Pope was the final word in how far the Congregation was allowed to go with anything considered a "major change", and the Popes were sensitive to the pleas of the monks and nuns begging them to stay the hand of the Congregation's more aggressive impositions.

2. While there were some relatively minor changes, mostly additions of feasts, to the Carthusian Liturgy, this too did not change the nature or structure of the Carthusian Life. The vernacular was adopted for the reading in the Mass and the Office, Sermons in Chapter are now preached in Latin, and the final oral examinations each semester, of the candidates for ordination, are now in the vernacular.

3. Some externals that were late pietistic accretions where abandoned for the more original Carthusian Practices...so the noisy, heavy Rosary hanging off the belt disappeared. The scourge went out of vogue...perhaps a dangerous practice because it is very hard to moderate in a hermit’s cell. The hair shirt remained for the Fathers but never for the Brothers or Nuns.

4. The Status of the Professed Laybrothers Vows was juridically unified with that of the Professed Fathers. For coenobitic orders like the Benedictines and Trappists, this meant that the Brothers were now considered "full" monks and their was not distinction of Choir Monk and Lay Brother. All, technically are exactly the same, some attend more Divine Office and work less and have more study time, others attend less Office work more and have less study time. This is regulated by the Abbot for the spiritual wellbeing of the individual monk. Most importantly, the Brothers were given the right to vote in any matter before the conventual chapter requiring a vote. Election of Abbots, Profession of Vows, Admission of Novices, and any communal business requiring the advice and consent of the community.

5. With the Carthusians, this "unification" could not take that form, since from their beginnings, they have always had two distinctly complementary forms of eremetical vocation. That of the Cloister Monks was centered on a highly structured literary-oriented, clerical, solitary life with the obligation of the full Choir Office and sacred study as a primary focus, in a very fixed solitude of the enclosed self-contained "Cell" complex. The Lay Monk vocation was that of a more free-style mobile hermit, with less structure, greater freedom and variety, focused on contemplation through manual labor, like many of the Desert Fathers. From the beginning the Carthusians believed these were both true hermit charisms within the same Charterhouse, and were perfectly ordered to care for all the needs of their communities, with the spiritual and administrative aspects cared for by the Cloister Monks and the temporal and domestic aspects cared for by the Lay Monks.

6. What the unification did was declare that the profession of vows was exactly the same in value, without obliging the same patterns of life, and of course giving all the professed monks a vote in the conventual chapter. Even the simply professed Cloister Monks and Lay Monks, and the Donate Brothers were given the vote on matters that concerned and included them, such as the admission of novices and the profession of simple vows or the Temporary or Perpetual Donation. I can remember voting in the chapter as a simply professed Cloister Monk on the admission of novices and the profession of novices and the acceptance of Temporary Donates.

7. One aspect of the Post Vat II Renewal was that all Lay Monks, if they wished, were invited to join in the Choral Office with the Cloister Monks. Some do, on a limited basis. Also, Lay Monks who wish, may be instituted Lectors and Acolytes to serve at the Choral Office and High Mass. There is no permanent Diaconate in the Charterhouse, so the only Deacons are Cloister Monks in transition to the Priesthood, which is part of their vocation as Cloister Monks. If there are no transitional Deacons in a community, then, the Cloister Monk Priests take turns serving as the weekly Deacon for all functions requiring a Deacon.

8. From the stand point of Canon Law and Ordinary Jurisdiction in the Church, the Monks Branch of the Order is a Clerical Religious Monastic Order with Perpetual Solemn Vows. This means that all Cloister Monk candidates must be capable of becoming ordained to the Priesthood, and that their profession of vows, automatically admits them to the clerical state and candidacy for Holy Orders (formerly what the solemn rite of clerical Tonsure did). This also means that the Prior of a Charterhouse is a Major Religious Superior of an Exempt Religious Order, and has Ordinary Jurisdiction (like a bishop) over the territory of the monastery, its inhabitants, and the clerics who reside there. While he is only a priest, and can not ordain his clerics to the major orders, he supervises them in all things as a bishop would, granting faculties to actually serve as a deacon or priest, celebrate the sacraments, hear confessions, and preach in the monastery.

8. As to the Carthusian Nuns, Vat II gave them more autonomy within their monasteries, so that the Priest Vicar of a Nun's Charterhouse is not a juridical superior of the Nuns, and the Local Prioress has the Ordinary Jurisdiction over her Nuns and the monastery. The Simply Professed and Solemnly Professed Lay Nuns, and the Lay Nun Donates, have been given the vote. The Solemnly Professed Lay Nuns have also been extended the Solemn Virginal Consecration just like the Solemnly Professed Cloister Nuns.

So, there you have all I can remember...there may be more, but most of it is slight, at best, since the Carthusian formula, in this day and age, just doesn't admit to major changes without loosing the essence of the vocation.

I hope this is helpful, and puts your mind to rest about the authenticity of the life lived today as it compares with both the Pre-Vat II life and the more primitive forms of Carthusian Life. The truth to be told, the invention of the printing press was a much more significant event for the Carthusians than any of the Ecumenical Councils.
[/quote]

[Chiquitunga]

[quote]3. Some externals that were late pietistic accretions where abandoned for the more original Carthusian Practices...so the noisy, heavy Rosary hanging off the belt disappeared.[/quote]

I really like the Rosary on the habit ... but I guess it could be a source of noise in an atomosphere of great silence, so I guess this was a good thing. I know the Sisters of Bethlehem have Rosaries hanging from their belts, however they are the string with knots-kind of Rosaries, so they're silent ...

[HisChild]

I love the rosaries as well. But I've never been in a situation where the silence was that complete. . .even within the Poor Clares.

[HisChild]

I'm wondering, since you are wondering about the Carthusians. . .what about the Cistercians?

[Emile James]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1153694' date='Jan 1 2007, 01:14 PM']
I'm wondering, since you are wondering about the Carthusians. . .what about the Cistercians?
[/quote]

ooooooooooooooooo, my favourite Cistercian Nuns, in the USA, in Wisconsin....

[url="http://www.nunocist.org/index.html"]http://www.nunocist.org/index.html[/url]
[img]http://www.nunocist.org/img359.jpg[/img]

The present monastery property was assessed six years ago for more than $2 million, said Sr. Roberta. "We have had some inquiries, but since we just do not know when we can break ground, we have let people know that we cannot sell," she said.

With the addition of six postulants in only five months, Sr. Roberta believes the community’s growth is part of God’s plan.

“I look at this (proposed) big monastery, and everybody says, ‘Oh, it’s impossible. It’s too big of a project,’ and I say if God wants that to happen, it’s going to happen. It will happen in his time,” she said. “Every Sister over here knows it’s going to happen, simply because (God) wouldn’t be sending us women for which there is no room if he wasn’t going to provide the room.”

Cistercians on the Web

To learn more about the Valley of Our Lady Monastery and the Cistercian nuns, visit their Web site. To view audio slideshows of the nuns at work and at prayer, go to the Catholic Herald's online slideshows link. [url="http://www.chnonline.org/slideshows/cistercians1/index.html"]http://www.chnonline.org/slideshows/cistercians1/index.html[/url]

Edited January 1, 2007 by Emile James