dabukthumpa Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 I am talking about aesthetics in general - not appealing. I am talking about objective beauty. I can understand - if you have had problems before. But I am not trying to Pit - any Traditional against Novus Ordo business. but It is a fair question - and I think answered truthfully - would help to dispell many of the negative feelings toward the Rich Tradition of the Church's past -and would even help us come to a place where we can see the Novus Ordo Mass done with more reverence - and uplifting devotion - from priests, laity, within the prayers, the music, the architecture etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 The Tridentine Rite refers to the Roman Rite developed after the Council of Trent. The English word “Tridentine” is derived from the Latin word Tridentum, the ancient name of the city now known as Trent. This poll should be removed because it is contrary to the guidelines and at least implies disrespect for the liturgy of the Church (even if you did not intend it to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 BTW, I would like to go on record as saying "I prefer the Tridentine Rite" And "I think the Liturgy of St. John Chyrsostom is the Bestest!" And "I still think the Novus Ordo is amesome!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 (edited) I don't know if I've ever been to a Tridentine mass (so I voted "undecided"). I should remedy that. I was at the Vatican in 98, and I don't think that was a Tridentine mass. It was Novus Ordo said in Latin and Italian. (I think?) The first Latin mass I ever attended was at St. Etheldreda's in London. It brought tears because it was so beautiful. (Or maybe because the incense was strong) The saddest abuse of the mass I've ever seen was in Ireland. The mass was 35 minutes long and the priest said it like an auctioneer, only with less enthusiasm. Edited January 9, 2004 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I am talking about aesthetics in general - not appealing. I am talking about objective beauty. I can understand - if you have had problems before. But I am not trying to Pit - any Traditional against Novus Ordo business. but It is a fair question - and I think answered truthfully - would help to dispell many of the negative feelings toward the Rich Tradition of the Church's past -and would even help us come to a place where we can see the Novus Ordo Mass done with more reverence - and uplifting devotion - from priests, laity, within the prayers, the music, the architecture etc.) Your poll does not imply any of that, does it? Maybe thats what you intended, but it is certainly not reflected in the poll. It is misleading. If you which to discuss objective beauty, maybe you should start a thread on that instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 I do not think the question goes agianst the guidelines. Also I have made that clear. And in no way does it imply disrespect for the Liturgy of the Church. It simply asks a totally valid question. Both Forms of Mass are valid, they meet the same ends, yet one can be inferior in regards to the depth of it's beauty -and the manner in which it signifies the truths being professed. I have not broken any rules, and I would hope you all would be interested in the final results of what people have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 There is no other way for me to ask the question - for which I was interested in the results for. Also - it is good to hear that some - (1) prefer the Tridentine Rite (I would ask why?) and (2) that someone else has at least been to a Mass said in Latin and it brought "tears to her eyes" (not from the incense I am sure - but from the reverence and manner in which that particular Mass was celebreated). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Michael Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 (edited) There's been a few English Nov-O Masses I've been to that brought ME to the verge of tears... where the atmosphere, the music, the lighting and everything totally jelled, producing a beautiful and very touching ceremony. It's all basically a matter of taste, I guess. I think the Novus Ordo is getting a bunch of bad press because some liturgical abuses went unchecked through the years, resulting in a form of Mass that's not performed the way it was intended. At any rate, I think we're on our way to the back alley with this... Edited January 9, 2004 by Thomas Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Thomas Michael - I would argue that it is not just a matter of taste. But rather Beauty itself is objective. Some things are just objectively more beautiful than others. You can have two of the same thing (like people for instance) and one can be Objectivly more beautiful than the other - or superior in beauty. This is what I am seeking by asking the question. I argue that the Tridentine Mass is objectively more beautifully superior than the Novus Ordo Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabukthumpa Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Also, i would add that it is not about getting lucky and hoping all the elements have jelled. This should never have to be. Rather it is about the Form of the Mass itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 (edited) I agree that the Missl of 1962 is superior in manifesting the sacrficial nature of the Mass; of the nature of the priesthood; of many other things. One can see this, by comparing missals. Especially over time and reflection. Marielapin, you probably know this, but Mr. Tolkien in a letter to one of his sons advised the child to memorize (in Latin) the Gloria, that the child may never lack words of and for joy. He also counseled the son to memorize the entire canon, so that the son could always pray the Mass. People can at least pray the Missal Ordinary if there is no Latin Mass nearby. I would think this a beautiful devotion, so to speak. And make a spiritual communion at the same time - maybe this is a perfect time, an inward time, as little sweetie's heartbeats meld with your own? Edited January 10, 2004 by Donna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I've never been to a Tridentine Mass...I can objectively say that in terms of music, the old school Tridentine Rite has something that the Novus Ordo Mass lacks....In my college's chorus, we sang Schubert's Mass in G Minor and it was so beautiful, it amazed me to think that this was what the Mass sounded like...this was what you would hear at a Cathedral...and I guess maybe that might be prettier than singing "Gift of finest wheat" EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY for FIVE WEEKS IN A ROW (ok....i'm not bitter....) but even though we don't sing stuff like that anymore, the Mass is just as beautiful because Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist, and that's what matters. and some Catholic hymns really get my groove on...like "I am the Berad of Life...that's a pretty groovin' hymn... I can play it on my electric guitar and sing it in Spanish now. yeah, the Mass has changed, but God is still doing what He intended to do through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 berad = bread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muschi Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Greetings and God bless! Being that I am a convert to the Catholic faith and a "post VaticanII" child at that, I don't understand WHAT the problem with the Novus Ordo Mass is. I somehow manage to see plenty of beauty in the Novus Ordo. Maybe that's because all I'm focused on is what leads to the consecration of the gifts and the fact that I'm about to be most abundantly blessed to really and truly partake of Christ which is the highest priveledge I will ever be granted in this life??!?- Muschi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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