Trinity

[Paladin]

For some reason, everyone believes in this "Trinitarian God" business. But who thought of that? Where is it in the Bible?

Jesus points to God as someone else repetedly in the Gospels: "The Father is greater than I" (Jn 14:28), and "Why do you call me good?...No one is good--except God alone" (Mk 10:18). And Paul refers to "God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit" (2 Cor 13:13) as if they were all very separate things.

Now yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But lots of people are. Job 38:7 talks about the "sons of God". Even normal humans are called "gods" (Ps 82:6), and Jesus points out that scripture says "you are gods" (Jn 10:34-36). In Colossians 1:15, Paul says Jesus is "the firstborn over all creation." First[i]born[/i]? Then wasn't he created and a part of creation, separate from God? And we all call God "Our Father." So what makes Jesus God anymore than we are?

The Holy Spirit, too, is suspect in this "Trinity" idea. The Greek word in the New Testament is neuter and is referred to as "it" often. It's also portrayed as a fire (Acts 2:3), a dove (Mt 3:16), wind (Acts 2:2), water (Jn 7:37-39); all impersonal, inanimate objects.

True, the Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to in personal terms. But so is sin "crouching at your door" (Gen 4:7), the earth cries out (Gen 4:10). Wisdom is a woman (Prov 8), and the law of sin wages war in Paul's mind like a soldier (Rom 7:23). So what if the Holy Spirit is referred to as a person? So is a bunch of other stuff that isn't in the "trinity".

Maybe Arius was right and Jesus isn't God? I dunno. Discuss.

[DAF]

Are you pro or con the Trinity?

My first question is (like it usually is) "why must it be in the Bible?" When you can prove to me that it must be written explicitly in the Bible, I'll tell you about the Trinity. Things are objectively true outside of the Bible, you know.

[desertwoman]

I"m not a scholar by any means, but I also wondered about Jesus being the son of God or not. NOt just, hey, God is my father, but that he is part of the trinity.

Since you are quoting from John, look at John chapter 8 versus 31-58.

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]"

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
The Claims of Jesus About Himself

48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"

49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

It's a lot of passage to get to a point, but it is great to read the dialouge that is going on between Jesus and the people. Jesus is showing that he is much more than just a wise prophet coming to warn the people of God's wrath and anger of sin.

The big gun in this passage is when he states that before Abraham, I AM. I AM is what God told Moses from the burning bush. I AM that I AM. Who can proclaim to be God, but God himself? He also says that he is from above.

Man is dust and nothing more, but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. There is more, but I shall return.

Edited September 16, 2006 by desertwoman

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paladin' post='1064220' date='Sep 16 2006, 01:12 PM']
For some reason, everyone believes in this "Trinitarian God" business. But who thought of that? Where is it in the Bible?

Jesus points to God as someone else repetedly in the Gospels: "The Father is greater than I" (Jn 14:28), and "Why do you call me good?...No one is good--except God alone" (Mk 10:18). And Paul refers to "God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit" (2 Cor 13:13) as if they were all very separate things.

Now yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But lots of people are. Job 38:7 talks about the "sons of God". Even normal humans are called "gods" (Ps 82:6), and Jesus points out that scripture says "you are gods" (Jn 10:34-36). In Colossians 1:15, Paul says Jesus is "the firstborn over all creation." First[i]born[/i]? Then wasn't he created and a part of creation, separate from God? And we all call God "Our Father." So what makes Jesus God anymore than we are?

The Holy Spirit, too, is suspect in this "Trinity" idea. The Greek word in the New Testament is neuter and is referred to as "it" often. It's also portrayed as a fire (Acts 2:3), a dove (Mt 3:16), wind (Acts 2:2), water (Jn 7:37-39); all impersonal, inanimate objects.

True, the Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to in personal terms. But so is sin "crouching at your door" (Gen 4:7), the earth cries out (Gen 4:10). Wisdom is a woman (Prov 8), and the law of sin wages war in Paul's mind like a soldier (Rom 7:23). So what if the Holy Spirit is referred to as a person? So is a bunch of other stuff that isn't in the "trinity".

Maybe Arius was right and Jesus isn't God? I dunno. Discuss.
[/quote]

Jesus place as firstborn means that of the things that flow from the Father (the Son is begotten of the Father), Jesus is first, and as such, has all power over the later things, those which are created. Jesus did not come into being, rather, He is eternally begotten. Creation came at a fixed point, the beginning of time, and it is later because there was a time when it was not. However, none of this means that the Son was created. We use the term "begotten" by way of analogy, because our language can't define exactly how the Son is generated. St. Thomas Aquinas used the language of a Generator and the Generated. In any event, Jesus is God. He has no beginning and no end, but the Gospels try to explain who and what He is by analogy. As for the sons of God argument, it is true that the Scriptures call us sons of God, but this simply does not mean anything to Christ's divinity. Remember, Christ not only claims God as His Father; Christ claims Himself as God ("Before Abraham was, I AM").

As for the Holy Spirit, Spirit simply means "breath." Again, this is analogy; the Holy Spirit is not really a grouping of air molecules. The Greek word for breath is "pneuma." The word "pneuma," which predates the Gospels, is a neuter word. Therefore, if makes grammatical sense that the Holy Spirit would be referred to by neuter terms in the Scriptures. This is for grammatical reasons, not for theological reasons. The Greek language simply demands this kind of treatment. As for the Holy Spirit's apparent lack of personhood, this is simply because we do not have the language to express Him otherwise.

Now, I give you another way to think about it. God is love. Love requires an exchange, a gift of self, and a total one at that. Therefore, there must be a giver of this love and a recipient. God the Father is the giver of love, but creation cannot be the primary recipient because it is not eternal (hence, God would not eternally be love, because He would not have an eternal object for His love) and because it is not capable of holding Him completely, let alone of making a return. Therefore, there must be an eternal Person capable of holding God's whole being for the Father to love. Now, this cannot be the Father Himself, because that would not be a self-giving love, but a self-sustaining love, which falls short. Therefore, there must be at least two Persons in one Godhead. Now, since the gift of love in God is none other than a total gift of self from God, His whole being is given over in that act of love (thus, as we confess, the Son is the same essence as the Father; He is everthing that the Father is). Now, there must also be a Person in the exchange of love itself, as the love is passed from the Father to the Son, while (again, we speak in temporal terms by way of analogy) the love is "in transit," if you will. Therefore, this third is proceeding. So we have one God, who is a Generator, a Generated, and a Proceeding. St. Thomas Aquinas names these "Genitor," "Genitus," and "Precedens," the Triune Godhead, three in one.

[DAF]

This raises the interesting quesiton of what Protestants define as "Christian." It seems like the term can be thrown around willy nilly. I mean, when people start asking if THE TRINITY is CHRISTIAN... It's been a fundamental Christian belief for 2,000 years, I don't know how you could really argue that you're not a Christian if you believe the Trinity. I don't know how you could define yourself as a Christian without believing in the Trinity.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Paladin' post='1064220' date='Sep 16 2006, 12:12 PM']
For some reason, everyone believes in this "Trinitarian God" business. But who thought of that? Where is it in the Bible?[/quote]

Interesting points. But I think when Jesus equates Himself with God is when He says "I AM" just as God said in the Old Testament.

[DAF]

He does it much more often than once too.

[Aloysius]

why paladin, are you baitinig our resident catholic-baiters? lol

[DAF]

[Budge]

I go with this verse. I do believe in the Trinity.
[size=5]
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.[/size]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Budge' post='1064585' date='Sep 16 2006, 09:50 PM']
I go with this verse. I do believe in the Trinity.
[size=5]
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.[/size]
[/quote]
what version of the Bible do you use? I didn't know that modern translations even had that verse.

[Resurrexi]

Well, it's in the Sacred Vulgate so it's part of the Infallable and Holy Word of the Holy Trinity.

[quote] 7 Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in cælo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt. [/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1064615' date='Sep 16 2006, 10:21 PM']
Well, it's in the Sacred Vulgate so it's part of the Infallable and Holy Word of the Holy Trinity.
[/quote]
this came up a while ago, here is the thread for what its worth: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=46730"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=46730[/url]

this is the jist of what I said then:
[quote]many modern translations exclude that verse entirely. It is absent in the early Greek manuscripts and is really something particular to the latin manuscript tradition (esp. the vulgate; although I believe the King James includes the verse). I'd say most scholars consider it to be an interpolation. Probably the marginal gloss of some copyist that made its way into the text of certain manuscripts. [/quote]

[Budge]

I use KJV...

[Resurrexi]

You should use the DRV... it's got the style of the JKV but is a whole lot more amazing