Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 If you guys want to "escape the box" for a little... I am reading a HARD book, not hard to read, hard to accept. A book by John MacArthur, called HARD TO BELIEVE. Ouch. Man, I'm condemned, wiped, guilty. He tells what the REAL story that Paul had to work with when he went out to "sell Christianity" I know the story, love the Pauline courage, but I never really considered how bizzare, outrageous, unbelievable, odd, strage, discredited, totally without MERIT. "OUR story" is. Yes. Consider this, you hear about some oddball from a tiny nation, from people that were basically HATED by all the Gentiles for their bigotry towards everyone else. A man executed as a common criminal, in the worst of situations. No culture of support [today we all know the story], no church, no beautiful robes, no scripture, no books, no one else. Just Paul, a story, and God and the Holy Spirit at work. He condemns US, in this book using the words, we are all puffed up, all of us, we spout off nonsense, and want to impress each other...myself included.... But this book tell us the words, translated, that Paul actually used when he called us "earthen vessels"... it really referrs to the pots that were in houses to carry out the ... well they didn't have toilets....and the residue in the pots that needed cleaning... SCUM...yes, Paul is calling us all, the ring around the potty pot. Ouch. I forget now, through the prism of our current heights, just where Christianity all started, from ground zero, with the lowest of the low, against highly civilized and organized cultures. We had a story so bizzare, so unbelievable, so utterly strange, a criminal from a hated culture, who rose from the DEAD? Gimmie a break, who in their right mind, in a culture that never heard of the OT or the prophecies would buy into THAT one? Great book, I feel humbled, broken, it is the story. Our squabbles make me ashamed. It is really a book that makes you put it down after every page...think, and pray that you are worthy enough to continue with the challenge to understand just what Jesus really did, and what real Christianity is, it is NOT seeker friendly... If anything, it is the hardest thing in the world to swallow, do, and be. Thank you Lord, thank you. Get, and read this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I love John MacArthur - I think I will read it. I read a novel based on Paul's life this summer that actually brought a tear to my eye at some point. It was rather accurate as well. One chapter was the entire book of Galatians, but it never felt like it when reading through it. It fit perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 sounds good. everyone needs a kick in the rear from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 If you guys want to "escape the box" for a little... Escape the box? Bruce, With all the sincere kindness this poor sinner can muster, I am asking this question. Why are you starting yet another thread, opening with a put-down, instead of remaining honestly engaged in ONE of all the many, many topics you've started with new threads, or multiple topics you add to existing threads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 JasJis... I believe it was for all of us to escape the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Gee... Imagine that. I wanted to move this to a nice thread... Grin. Some guys NEED to "escape the box" and that is the box of confrontation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I am saddened that my response seems so "harsh". I wish not to be seen as thus. I know I am not perfect. But I honestly believe, after much prayer and thought, that it has been laid upon my heart to serve God and combat sly words that will mislead others. Even the Devil used God's Words to tempt Jesus. It's not the words, but how they are used that hide or twist their meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I am saddened that my response seems so "harsh". I wish not to be seen as thus. I know I am not perfect. But I honestly believe, after much prayer and thought, that it has been laid upon my heart to serve God and combat sly words that will mislead others. Even the Devil used God's Words to tempt Jesus. It's not the words, but how they are used that hide or twist their meaning. It wasn't harsh at all. you aren't the only one, JasJis, who sees through Bruce's "honest" threads. no church, no beautiful robes, no scripture, no books, no one else. Just Paul, a story, and God and the Holy Spirit at work. If that wasn't a sucker punch at Catholicism, then I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 (edited) If that wasn't a sucker punch at Catholicism, then I don't know what is. it was a punch at ALL modern Christianity as we have it. MacArthur's concern is not Catholics but the seeker friendly Protestant denominations that water down the real Gospel to get butts in the pews. The bands, greeters, and social activites, worldly stuff... All of us need to understand what Paul had, and what he taught, it is NOT found in any of our church's today, we can't even understand the world he walked into. THAT is the book I'm TRYING to discuss, if you will allow it. Sheeesh. Can't you guys take the chip off your shoulder for once? Edited January 9, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 If that wasn't a sucker punch at Catholicism, then I don't know what is. Jake! It was a call to remember the brutality of the life of Paul! Not to mock a church! Get over yourself, you too JisJas. The entire world is not centered around you and mocking Catholicism. This is getting disgusting, Bruce's words hit me just as much as they hit you. There often is too much 'surface stuff' at any church at any place. Repetition in how we do Lord's Supper, forgetting that it is easy to discuss on a webboard theology and history - but it is hard to imagine the life of Paul. Hard to imagine what it is really like to be out on the field, alone, starving, deep grooves whipped into your flesh on your board, and your sides, having survived beatings, a stoning, and having no one except God alone for your comfort. That is a radical change from the lives we live - radical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Amen. I'm humbled to tears over what we have, and do, and what they, the pioneers didn't have. No support, no Bible, no choir, no tithes to live on, no ... no... no... NOTHING. The most improbable story ever created, an audience that thought you were insane for preaching it, being stoned and left for dead, being beaten, imprisioned. And we yak at each other like THIS counts. Saddened at all of us, ALL of us, each and every one who forgets what that man did for Jesus and how little we do ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Jake! It was a call to remember the brutality of the life of Paul! Not to mock a church! Get over yourself, you too JisJas. The entire world is not centered around you and mocking Catholicism. This is getting disgusting, Bruce's words hit me just as much as they hit you. There often is too much 'surface stuff' at any church at any place. Repetition in how we do Lord's Supper, forgetting that it is easy to discuss on a webboard theology and history - but it is hard to imagine the life of Paul. Hard to imagine what it is really like to be out on the field, alone, starving, deep grooves whipped into your flesh on your board, and your sides, having survived beatings, a stoning, and having no one except God alone for your comfort. That is a radical change from the lives we live - radical. Circle, I am over myself. That's why I speak the truth, even if I get kicked. I know "The entire world is not centered around you and mocking Catholicism." But I don't have to be smacked many times to learn to duck. I try and read all of Bruce's posts. I have prayed alot about them and sought the advice of others. It's the misperception that he perpetuates that I attack. Not him. But what he says. My brother-in-law has Catholic family that lives in Mosul right now. His parents were married there. The Catholic Church is more than the Bascillica of the Immaculate Concpetion in D.C. I've attended Catholic Mass in the rain and cold. I've seen Mass offered at the migrant camp by my house, outside in the mud and heat. I've been offered, and shared the Kiss of Peace during Mass, grasping the dirty hand of a fruit picker beside me, and then the manicured grasp of the millionaire behind me, in the same church, during the same Mass. No need to abandon "denominations". Don't seek to abandon. Seek God and the TRUTH humanity knows will blot out error eventually. We always find what we look for. But that's all we ever find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seek Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 It sounds like a great book. I am an orthodox Catholic. I was not scandalized by Bruce's wording. The point I read was... that it is the story of St. Pauls tremendous undertaking. With the power of Christ he was able to spread the Gospel to the world despite being faced with impossible conditions. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 It sounds like a great book. I am an orthodox Catholic. I was not scandalized by Bruce's wording. The point I read was... that it is the story of St. Pauls tremendous undertaking. With the power of Christ he was able to spread the Gospel to the world despite being faced with impossible conditions. Peace. amen. I take strength from Paul everyday. Especially when I read and he "strengthens himself in the Lord" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 It sounds like a great book. I am an orthodox Catholic. I was not scandalized by Bruce's wording. The point I read was... that it is the story of St. Pauls tremendous undertaking. With the power of Christ he was able to spread the Gospel to the world despite being faced with impossible conditions. Peace. That's great, Seek. Keep in mind, SALT on food is a joy in life and welcomed with desire. SALT in a wound is another thing. Throw SALT at a table, and some will season your meal, and some will cause pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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