Grace- How Do We Get It?

[Aloysius]

but my example is also a free gift, and it lines up more with scriptures (specifically the epistle of james, and the saying of paul that one must "persevere to the end")

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062515' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:24 AM']Just one more example of the Catholic Decoder Ring problem.

Naturally this one TOO goes against the Gospel as delivered by Paul to the early churchES that he founded. { I continually wonder why the Catholic Church invokes Paul all the time, while denying just about everything that Paul taught? }[/quote]In light of Sojourner's post, here's another instance of "pot/kettle/black".

[quote]One way, the Pauline way, is a totally FREE gift, offered to you and you alone.[/quote]My favorite part of the faith-alone doctrine is that Our Lord's own words can never be used to defend it...only a selection of carefully chosen Pauline quotes.

Should we not listen to our Lord in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm#v31"]Matthew 25:31ff[/url], when he describes how he separates the sheep from the goats? Or, when He states, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments" ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john14.htm#v15"]John 14:15[/url])? I don't see any Protestants accusing Our Lord of making a "works-based" religion, or claiming that one needs a "decoder ring" to understand Him. And yet, it's a huge stretch to find a rigid "faith-alone" doctrine from Our Lord, Himself.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062515' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:24 AM']The Catholic way is a downpayment made, and for the rest of your life you toil away to EARN your salvation, and giving to others your excess, allowing you to BOAST that your salvation is a "joint effort" with YOU being actually more important than the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Twisted.[/quote]Frankly, I don't know any Catholic who thinks that he is "more important that the shed blood of Jesus Christ. In any event, your caricature of Catholicism is no more twisted than St. Paul's claim that he was "filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ" ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians1.htm#v24"]Col 1:24[/url]). Although, I'm sure you have some explanation that he is "alluding" to something that is "obvious" to anyone (read "any Pentacostal").

[Eutychus]

[quote] Should we not listen to our Lord in Matthew 25:31ff, when he describes how he separates the sheep from the goats? [/quote]

Matty boy....

Go READ that over VERY VERY carefully.

Blow the dust off a decent bible, crack the spine and Volia!

Guess what you will find? That passage is the JUDGEMENT OF NATIONS, not of individuals.

Of course, there being FIVE different Judgement scenario's laid out in scripture, for different groups and situations, is totally oblivious to the pew puppies, who are focusing in on purge-it-today moreso than eternal rewards.

[quote]Matthew 25:32 (KJV)[size=4] [b]And before him shall be gathered [u]all nations[/u]: and he shall [u]separate them [/u]one from another,[/b] [/size]as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:[/quote]

Missed that little nuance, didn't you Mattey boy?

Edited September 14, 2006 by Eutychus

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062815' date='Sep 14 2006, 05:41 PM']Matty boy....

Go READ that over VERY VERY carefully.

Blow the dust off a decent bible, crack the spine and Volia!

Guess what you will find? That passage is the JUDGEMENT OF NATIONS, not of individuals.

Of course, there being FIVE different Judgement scenario's laid out in scripture, for different groups and situations, is totally oblivious to the pew puppies, who are focusing in on purge-it-today moreso than eternal rewards.
Missed that little nuance, didn't you Mattey boy?
[/quote]I'm confused. Am I "Matty boy" or "Mattey boy"?

Anyway, just the Church is like a body, made up of members (i.e. Christians), so are nations like a body, made up of citizens. The phrase "all nations" is just a way of saying that both Jews and gentiles are included in the judgment.

Just look at verse 34:[quote name='Matthew 25:34']Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.[/quote]How can a "nation" answer the call to "come" and "inherit the kingdom prepared...from the foundation of the world"?

Maybe this is just more "obvious" Pentacostal doctrine...

PS: Eutychus, thank you for not hiding your beliefs and simply attacking Catholic teachings.

[Sojourner]

Wow, I didn't realize that my whole nation would collectively be up for judgment. Maybe I should consider moving ...

[Eutychus]

[quote]QUOTE(Matthew 25:34)
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.[/quote]

[quote]
[color="#663333"][b]How can a "nation" answer the call to "come" and "inherit the kingdom prepared...from the foundation of the world"?[/b] [/color][/quote]

IF you knew, IF you believed, IF you had studied, and IF you were not trapped in a church that detests prophecy, and is riddled with amillienialism and replacement theology, and kingdom now teachings...

YOU WOULD KNOW the answer.

Starting with Abraham, and continuing on, there are hundreds and hundreds of passages all pointing to the MILLENIAL KINGDOM, the real, here on earth, `1000 year reign of Christ with a RESTORED ISRAEL and peopled by the saved AND AND AND...the Jews who come to Jesus during the Tribulation.

Ergo, the "nation" { saved Jews } FINALLY inherits the KINGDOM PREPARED { the Millenial Kingdom } WITH the King { Jesus.}

Sheesh. That really isn't that hard to "get" once you take of the lace blinders and blow the incense out of the room, now is it?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062991' date='Sep 14 2006, 08:29 PM']
IF you knew, IF you believed, IF you had studied, and IF you were not trapped in a church that detests prophecy, and is riddled with amillienialism and replacement theology, and kingdom now teachings...

YOU WOULD KNOW the answer.

Starting with Abraham, and continuing on, there are hundreds and hundreds of passages all pointing to the MILLENIAL KINGDOM, the real, here on earth, `1000 year reign of Christ with a RESTORED ISRAEL and peopled by the saved AND AND AND...the Jews who come to Jesus during the Tribulation.

Ergo, the "nation" { saved Jews } FINALLY inherits the KINGDOM PREPARED { the Millenial Kingdom } WITH the King { Jesus.}

Sheesh. That really isn't that hard to "get" once you take of the lace blinders and blow the incense out of the room, now is it?
[/quote]
*sniff*

is that an eschatalogical argument I'm smelling?

or just scatalogical?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062991' date='Sep 14 2006, 10:29 PM']IF you knew, IF you believed, IF you had studied, and IF you were not trapped in a church that detests prophecy, and is riddled with amillienialism and replacement theology, and kingdom now teachings...

YOU WOULD KNOW the answer.[/quote]Hold on. A Church that detests prophecy? What Church had to reject the innovator Martin Luther, who wanted to remove the Book of Revelation, the prophetic book [i]par excellence[/i] of the New Testament? If the Catholic Church wanted to "detest prophecy," that would have been a great time to show it.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062991' date='Sep 14 2006, 10:29 PM']Starting with Abraham, and continuing on, there are hundreds and hundreds of passages all pointing to the MILLENIAL KINGDOM, the real, here on earth, `1000 year reign of Christ with a RESTORED ISRAEL and peopled by the saved AND AND AND...the Jews who come to Jesus during the Tribulation.

Ergo, the "nation" { saved Jews } FINALLY inherits the KINGDOM PREPARED { the Millenial Kingdom } WITH the King { Jesus.}

Sheesh. That really isn't that hard to "get" once you take of the lace blinders and blow the incense out of the room, now is it?[/quote]Oh no. The Catholic innovation of Incense. How un-Biblical. Or not:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9201cust.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9201cust.asp[/url]

I really never heard anyone mention that nations would be "saved." Our Lord saves individuals with souls that are eternal, not nations (whose souls are merely figurative). Even your response admits that the term nation is just a way of saying "saved Jews" (i.e. individuals). There are also unsaved Jews who descended from Abraham. They are the broken branches, as mentioned in [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans11.htm#v17"]Romans 11:17[/url]. The gentiles who embrace the gospel are the wild olive shoot, grafted to the tree, the descendents of the promise made to Abraham.

If you want to call what St. Paul wrote to the Romans "Replacement Theology," then I guess I'll have to confess that I'm guilty of following St. Paul's lead.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1062991' date='Sep 14 2006, 08:29 PM']
IF you knew, IF you believed, IF you had studied, and IF you were not trapped in a church that detests prophecy, and is riddled with amillienialism and replacement theology, and kingdom now teachings...

blah blah blah
[/quote]
your knowledge of Catholic belief is almost as staggering as your knowledge of Scripture. the Catholic Church bears the authentic prophetic charism and if you honestly believe that the Church "detests prophecy" your ignorance is greater than I imagined.

amillenialism? ouch! sorry that like all actual Christians throughout history we believe that Christ will come again "in glory". fancy that. I suppose you have a different creed though, probably one constructed in the last hundred or so years by door to door evangelists trying to pawn off a cheap mockery of the Gospel.

replacement theology? hardly, since it is Catholic teaching that the Jews will be converted before the second coming. If you deny that the Church is the continuation of Israel then you are far from the Scriptures, but this view in a Catholic context does not imply that the Jews are no longer the chosen people. read before you accuse, and learn the truth before you presume to pontificate.

kingdom now baby!
although this is more a protestant category and I've seen no evidence to suggest that you grasp Catholic belief, which happens to be the belief of historical Christianity and the correct reading of sacred Scripture.

Guess what: I know, I believe, I've studied, and what you seem to think is the Catholic Church is a figment of your imagination and probably a fragmentary construct of bad propaganda. Although this isn't surprising since it is the web of lies that is protestant propaganda which really defined its existence and continues to define its traditions (traditions of men). If you want to get with the truth you need to get with the pillar and foundation.

[Eutychus]

[quote]Wow, I didn't realize that my whole nation would collectively be up for judgment. Maybe I should consider moving .. [/quote]

Maybe you should.

God judging entire nations is HARDLY a new concept.

Have you never read Exodus, and the NATION of Egypt being judged?

Have you never read Daniel, and the NATION of Babylon was judged?

Have you never read Jeremiah? Count the NATIONS that are judged in Jeremiah and Isaiah.

So, why do you find that concept so radical? Unless your teachers have been so poorly trained themselves, that they never bothered to communicate the PAST to you, or the FUTURE as set forth in prophecy?

[quote]amillenialism? ouch! sorry that like all actual Christians throughout history we believe that Christ will come again "in glory". fancy that. I suppose you have a different creed though, probably one constructed in the last hundred or so years by door to door evangelists trying to pawn off a cheap mockery of the Gospel. [/quote]

Thank you for proving my point.

What you described above is NOT the Millenium, but then, how would you know, given the abysmal teaching skills evidenced in Catholic teaching nowadays?

[quote]replacement theology? hardly, since it is Catholic teaching that the Jews will be converted before the second coming. If you deny that the Church is the continuation of Israel then you are far from the Scriptures, but this view in a Catholic context does not imply that the Jews are no longer the chosen people. read before you accuse, and learn the truth before you presume to pontificate.[/quote]

Sorry dude. You ain't no CONTINUATION....but rather you have been GRAFTED ONTO the root { Read Romans, it is amazing what you might find int here...} and your abysmal lack of historical knowledge of Roman Catholicicm and REPLACEMENT theology is borderline criminal. Frankly for you even to TRY to deny that has been the constant, unchanging, siren song of the Catholic Church for over a thousand years is actually a hoot. At best, today you MIGHT find some Catholic biggies playing the game of reconcilliation with the Jews, but mostly that is because the Jews have the Holy Lands now and hte Catholic Church is seeking tax concessions and HAS BEEN for a long time, they offered recognition to the Israelis, in return for exemption from taxation on the huge holdings they have in Israel. It isn't a newfound belief that the Jews are playing out in prophecy, but rather cold hard cash that is motivating the Vatican.

[Laudate_Dominum]

wow, what a disturbingly sinister pack of ignorance and lies...

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063613' date='Sep 15 2006, 03:18 PM']
What you described above is NOT the Millenium, but then, how would you know, given the abysmal teaching skills evidenced in Catholic teaching nowadays?
Sorry dude. You ain't no CONTINUATION....but rather you have been GRAFTED ONTO the root { Read Romans, it is amazing what you might find int here...}
[/quote]
Sure, I personally have been grafted to the root, I'm a gentile after all. But the Church [i]in se[/i] is hardly a grafting onto Israel, the Church IS Israel. I have been grafted to the Church in the same sense that I've been grafted to the Body of Christ, but would you say that Christ was grafted to Israel, or rather that Christ fulfills Israel? That's what I thought.
You might start with the Catechism if you want to know what the Church actually teaches.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063613' date='Sep 15 2006, 03:18 PM']
and your abysmal lack of historical knowledge of Roman Catholicicm and REPLACEMENT theology is borderline criminal.
[/quote]
haha! omgosh, that's rich. that's quite a lofty judgment to reach from a pithy post.
you don't think you're exaggerating just a little? Quite frankly, I didn't think it was possible for someone to be as low on the credibility ladder as you are, and this sentence alone is pretty strong proof that you talk out of your rear and usually have no clue what you're talking about. But if you want to pretend that's fine with me. Have fun.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063613' date='Sep 15 2006, 03:18 PM']
Frankly for you even to TRY to deny that has been the constant, unchanging, siren song of the Catholic Church for over a thousand years is actually a hoot. At best, today you MIGHT find some Catholic biggies playing the game of reconcilliation with the Jews, but mostly that is because the Jews have the Holy Lands now and hte Catholic Church is seeking tax concessions and HAS BEEN for a long time, they offered recognition to the Israelis, in return for exemption from taxation on the huge holdings they have in Israel. It isn't a newfound belief that the Jews are playing out in prophecy, but rather cold hard cash that is motivating the Vatican.
[/quote]
Ok, fine, we can look at historical sources for a change. Let's see, the statement I made was: "it is Catholic teaching that the Jews will be converted before the second coming."; to this you simply insinuated that this was inspired by some creepy Vatican greed ("but rather cold hard cash that is motivating the Vatican").

I know this is probably too much to ask, but if you want to be taken seriously you might try making logical arguments with credible evidence instead of just spewing ridiculous slurs around.

Anyway, let's see if there is any truth to my claim that the Church teaches, and has always taught the conversion of the Jews:


[i]"Conversion of the Jews: According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): 'For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.'"[/i] - [b]Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition), "General Judgment"[/b]


[i]"Signs of the second coming:
... b) The conversion of the Jews
.. When the fullness, that is the number ordained by God, of the gentiles has entered the kingdom of God "all Israel" will be converted and saved."[/i] - [b]Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 486[/b]


[i]"Whereas the Jews are made to the image of God, and a remnant of them [b]will one day be saved[/b], and whereas they have sought our protection: following in the footsteps of our predecessors We command that they be not disturbed in their synagogues..."[/i] - [b]Pope Martin V, Declaration on the Protection of the Jews, 1419[/b]

[i]"not displeasing to the Lord, but rather, acceptable to Him that the Dispersion of the Jews should live and do service under Catholic Kings and Christian princes – the remnants of which then will finally be saved (Romans 9:3-24), since in those days Judah will be saved (Jeremiah 33:6-26) and Israel will dwell in mutual trust."[/i] - [b]Pope Innocent III in Regi Francorum [/b]

[i]"the coming of Enoch and Elias, who live even now and shall live until they come to oppose Antichrist himself, and to preserve the elect in the faith of Christ, and in the end shall convert the Jews, and it is certain that this is not yet fulfilled."[/i] - [b]St. Robert Bellarmine in De Summo Pontifice [/b]

[i]"What, I say, will such an admission effectuate, if not that it bring the Gentiles back to life? The Gentiles would be the believers whose faith has grown cold, or even that the totality, deceived by the Antichrist, fall and are restored to their pristine fervor by the admission of the Jews."[/i] - [b]St. Thomas Aquinas in Commentary on Epistle to the Romans[/b]

I also found a variety of quotes from the fathers of the Church, here are some in case you're interested:

[quote]St. Augustine:


City of God XX.29:

Chapter 29.-Of the Coming of Elias Before the Judgment, that the Jews May Be Converted to Christ by His Preaching and Explanation of Scripture.

After admonishing them to give heed to the law of Moses, as he foresaw that for a long time to come they would not understand it spiritually and rightly, he went on to say, "And, behold, I will send to you Elias the Tishbite before the great and signal day of the Lord come: and he shall turn the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his next of kin, lest I come and utterly smite the earth." It is a familiar theme in the conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, by means of this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the law to them. For not without reason do we hope that before the coming of our Judge and Saviour Elias shall come, because we have good reason to believe that he is now alive; for, as Scripture most distinctly informs us, he was taken up from this life in a chariot of fire. When, therefore, he is come, he shall give a spiritual explanation of the law which the Jews at present understand carnally, and shall thus "turn the heart of the father to the son," that is, the heart of fathers to their children; for the Septuagint translators have frequently put the singular for the plural number. And the meaning is, that the sons, that is, the Jews, shall understand the law as the fathers, that is, the prophets, and among them Moses himself, understood it. For the heart of the fathers shall be turned to their children when the children understand the law as their fathers did; and the heart of the children shall be turned to their fathers when they have the same sentiments as the fathers. The Septuagint used the expression, "and the heart of a man to his next of kin," because fathers and children are eminently neighbors to one another. Another and a preferable sense can be found in the words of the Septuagint translators, who have translated Scripture with an eye to prophecy, the sense, viz., that Elias shall turn the heart of God the Father to the Son, not certainly as if he should bring about this love of the Father for the Son, but meaning that he should make it known, and that the Jews also, who had previously hated, should then love the Son who is our Christ. For so far as regards the Jews, God has His heart turned away from our Christ, this being their conception about God and Christ. But in their case the heart of God shall be turned to the Son when they themselves shall turn in heart, and learn the love of the Father towards the Son.

On the Psalms (Ps. LXXIV, para 10) (NPNF, Vol 8, pages 345-346) cites the account of Moses' hand turning white with leprosy and then being restored to health as a prefigurement of the restoration of Israel after its initial rejection of Christ.

On the Psalms (Ps. LXXXIX, para 35) (NPNF, Vol 8,pages 438-439): "After these stern penalties which have been recorded as having been inflicted upon this people and kingdom (Israel), that God might not be supposed to have fulfilled His promises in it, and so not to grant another kingdom in Christ, of which kingdom there shall be no end, the prophet addresses Him in these words, 'Lord, how long wilt Thou hid Thyself unto the end?' (v 46). For possibly it was not from them and to the end; because 'blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Genitles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved.' but in the mean while 'shall Thy wrath burn like fire.'"



St. Jerome, Comm. to the Song of Songs, Homily 1:

"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel. You will find both in the Apostle (St. Paul)."



St. John Chrysostom:

Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew HOMILY LVII:
For the Scriptures speak of two advents of Christ, both this that is past, and that which is to come; and declaring these Paul said, "The grace of God, that bringeth salvation, hath appeared, teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, and righteously, and godly."Behold the one, hear how he declares the other also; for having said these things, he added, "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ."And the prophets too mention both; of the one, however, that is, of the second, they say Elias will be the forerunner. For of the first, John was forerunner; whom Christ called also Elias, not because he was Elias, but because he was fulfilling the ministry of that prophet. For as the one shall be forerunner of the second advent, so was the other too of the first. But the Scribes, confusing these things and perverting the people, made mention of that other only to the people, the second advent, and said, "If this man is the Christ, Elias ought to have come beforehand." Therefore the disciples too speak as follows, "How then say the Scribes, Elias must first come ?" Therefore also the Pharisees sent unto John, and asked him, "Art thou Elias?"making no mention anywhere of the former advent. What then is the solution, which Christ alleged? "Elias indeed cometh then, before my second advent; and now too is Elias come;" so calling John. In this sense Elias is come: but if thou wouldest seek the Tishbite, he is coming. Wherefore also He said, "Elias truly cometh, and shall restore all things."All what things? Such as the Prophet Malachi spake of; for "I will send you," saith He, "Elias the Tishbite, who shall restore the heart of father to son, lest I come and utterly smite the earth." Seest thou the accuracy of prophetical language? how, because Christ called John, Elias, by reasoning of their community of office, lest thou shouldest suppose this to be the meaning of the prophet too in this place, He added His country also, saying, "the Tishbite;"whereas John was not a Tishbite. And herewith He sets down another sign also, saying, "Lest I come and utterly smite the earth," signifying His second and dreadful advent. For in the first He came not to smite the earth. For, "I came not," saith He, "to judge the world, but to save the world." To show therefore that the Tishbite comes before that other advent, which hath the judgment, He said this. And the reason too of his coming He teaches withal. And what is this reason? That when He is come, he may persuade the Jews to believe in Christ, and that they may not all utterly perish at His coming. Wherefore He too, guiding them on to that remembrance, saith, "And he shall restore all things;" that is, shall correct the unbelief of the Jews that are then in being. Hence the extreme accuracy of his expression; in that he said not, "He will restore the heart of the son to the father," but "of the father to the son."For the Jews being fathers of the apostles, his meaning is, that he will restore to the doctrines of their sons, that is, of the apostles, the hearts of the fathers, that is, the Jewish people's mind. "But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of Man suffer of them. Then they understood that He spake to them of John." And yet neither the Scribes said this, nor the Scriptures; but because now they were sharper and more attentive to His sayings, they quickly caught His meaning. And whence did the disciples know this? He had already told them, "He is Elias, which was for to come;"but here, that he hath come; and again, that "Elias cometh and will restore all things." But be not thou troubled, nor imagine that His statement wavers, though at one time He said, "he will come," at another, "he hath come." For all these things are true. Since when He saith, "Elias indeed cometh, and will restore all things," He means Elias himself, and the conversion of the Jews which is then to take place; but when He saith, "Which was for to come," He calls John, Elias, with regard to the manner of his administration. Yea, and so the prophets used to call every one of their approved kings, David; and the Jews, "rulers of Sodom,"and "sons of Ethiopians;" because of their ways. For as the other shall be forerunner of the second advent, so was this of the first.

Homily XIX on Rom. 11, Ver 12 (NPNF Vol 11, page 489):
"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fulness?...' For if when they stumbled, he says, so many enjoyed salvation, and when they were case out so many were called, just consider what will be the case when they return. ....Now, he does not say, 'how much more their'return, or their altering, or their well-doing, but 'how much more their fulness', that is, when they are all about coming in."

Homily XIX on Rom. 11, Ver 15 (NPNF Vol 11, page 490):
"'For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?' ....But see also even in his favors to them, how he solaces them in words only. 'For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,' (and what is this to the Jews?) 'what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?' Yet even this was no boon to them, unless they had been received. But what he means is to this effect: If in anger with them He gave other men so great gifts, when He is reconciled to them what will He not give?'"

Homily XIX on Rom. 11 ver. 27:
“For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins”. Not when they are circumcised….but when theey attain to the forgiveness of sins. If then this hath been promised, but has never yet happened in their case, nor have they ever enoyed the remission of sins by baptism, certainly it will come to pass.


St. John Damascene:

De Fide Orthodoxa (IV, 26, "Concerning the Antichrist"):
It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist. First, then, it is requisite that the Gospel should be preached among all nations, as the Lord said, and then he will come to refute the impious Jews…
But Enoch and Elias the Thesbite shall be sent and shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, that is, the synagogue to our Lord Jesus Christ and the preaching of the apostles: and they will be destroyed by him. And the Lord shall come out of heaven, just as the holy apostles beheld Him going into heaven, perfect God and perfect man, with glory and power, and will destroy the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction, with the breath of His mouth. Let no one, therefore, look for the Lord to come from earth, but out of Heaven, as He himself has made sure.


Pope St. Gregory the Great:

Moralia in Iob (Preface, X, 20):
"After the loss of Job's possessions, after all his bereavements, after all the suffering of his wounds, after all his angry debates, it is good that he is consoled by twofold repayment. In just this way does the holy church, while it is still in this world, receive twofold reward for the trials it sustains, when all the gentile nations have been brought into its midst, at the end of time, and the church converts even the hearts of the Jews to its cause. Thus it is written, 'Until the fulness of nations enters and so all Israel is saved.'"

Homilia 22 in Evangelia:
Dearly beloved brethren, the portion of the Holy Gospel which hath just now been read in your ears, is exceeding simple on the face of it, which is its historical sense ; but the mystic sense, which underlieth that other, requireth from us a little searching. Mary Magdalene came unto the Sepulchre when it was yet dark. The historic sense telleth us what was the hour of the day ; the mystic sense, the state of her understanding who sought. Mary Magdalene sought for him, by whom all things were made, and whom she had seen die, as concerning the flesh ; she sought for him, I say, in the grave, and finding him not, she believed that he had been stolen away. Yea, it was yet dark, when she came unto the sepulchre. Then she ran and told the disciples, but they who had loved him most, namely Peter and John, did outrun the others.
So they ran both together, but John did outrun Peter, and came first to the Sepulchre, but yet took he not upon himself to go in first. Then cometh Peter following him, and went in. What, my brethren, what did the racing of these Apostles signify? Can we believe that the description given by the deepest of the Evangelists is without a mystic interpretation? By no means. John had never told how that he did outrun Peter, and yet went not into the Sepulchre, if he had not believed that his hesitation veiled some mystery. What signifieth John but the Synagogue? or Peter, but the Church?
Neither must ye take it as strange that the elder Apostle should represent the Church, and younger the Synagogue : for although the Synagogue was first to worship God, yet the herd of Gentiles is in the world older than the Synagogue, as witnesseth Paul where he saith : That was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural. By Peter, then, who was the elder, is signified the Church of the Gentiles ; and by John, who was the younger, the Synagogue of the Jews. They run both of them together, for from the time of her birth until now (and so will it be until the end), the Church of the Gentiles hath run in a parallel road and manywise a common road with the Synagogue, albeit not with equal understandings. The Synagogue came first to the Sepulchre, but she hath not yet entered in ; for, though she hath received the commandments of the law, and hath heard the Prophets tell of the Incarnation and Passion of the Lord, she will not believe in him who died for her.

Theodoret:
"Paul insists that only a part of Israel has been hardened, for many of them believe. He thus encourages them not to despair that others will be saved as well. After the Gentiles accepted the gospel, the Jews would believe, when the great Elijah would come to them and bring them the doctrine of the faith. The Lord himself said as much: 'Elijah will come and will restore all things.'"[/quote]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063613' date='Sep 15 2006, 03:18 PM']
Maybe you should.

God judging entire nations is HARDLY a new concept.

Have you never read Exodus, and the NATION of Egypt being judged?

Have you never read Daniel, and the NATION of Babylon was judged?

Have you never read Jeremiah? Count the NATIONS that are judged in Jeremiah and Isaiah.

So, why do you find that concept so radical? Unless your teachers have been so poorly trained themselves, that they never bothered to communicate the PAST to you, or the FUTURE as set forth in prophecy?
Thank you for proving my point.
[/quote]
You have quite the winning personality ... I bet people tell you that all the time.

I am indeed aware of the idea of God judging entire nations. I have, after all, read the Bible cover to cover on more than one occasion and sat through several decades of Sunday School classes.

However, this passage is clearly referring to eternal judgment, not temporal. And no, I don't think I've ever read or heard anything suggesting that entire nations are collectively damned or granted eternal life.

[Eutychus]

[quote] You have quite the winning personality ... I bet people tell you that all the time. [/quote]

Yeah, I can be a tad harsh when dealing with glaring historical and biblical gross illiteracy.

I'm more the Elijah school, than the Kumbayah school of debater. But one thing you will find out, is I tell it as I see it, and let the chips fall where they may. I have never been accused of duplicity and feigned friendship just to ingrate myself.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063836' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:18 PM']
Yeah, I can be a tad harsh when dealing with glaring historical and biblical gross illiteracy.

I'm more the Elijah school, than the Kumbayah school of debater. But one thing you will find out, is I tell it as I see it, and let the chips fall where they may. I have never been accused of duplicity and feigned friendship just to ingrate myself.
[/quote]


It is quite counter productive to denine the True Holy Bible, as well as historical facts you do not agree with, and have an Equus asinus attitude. All of this does not help in the salvation of man.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063836' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:18 PM']
Yeah, I can be a tad harsh when dealing with glaring historical and biblical gross illiteracy.

I'm more the Elijah school, than the Kumbayah school of debater. But one thing you will find out, is I tell it as I see it, and let the chips fall where they may. I have never been accused of duplicity and feigned friendship just to ingrate myself.
[/quote]
That's awfully presumptuous of you ... the test of a prophet is whether or not his prophecies are true. I've not read any of your statements thus far that even come in the vicinity of truth, so I can't say I'd agree that you're in the "Elijah school" of anything.