M.SIGGA Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I know that some Protestant communities believe that Jesus is spiritually present to some degree when taking communion. Even though it is not the Body and Blood of Jesus, why are the elements of communion still not treated with the most respect all the time? I attended a Communion Sunday Service in a conservative Methodist Church and they were pretty proper about the whole thing, w/ traditional kneeling and altar rails and all, and it was all done really respectfully until the end when the left over bread was disgarded in a trash bag while still on the altar. I went to a 7th Day Adventist Church w/ a former girlfriend and there was not an overall seriousness about the event while in the pews - people were talking, etc. Trays of communion were passed around, and the man next to me took a pill with his cup of juice. This isn't an attack, but I am curious to what is the proper posture and the way to act when taking communion in a Protestant Church when Jesus is supposed to be spiritually present? Is there an encouraged posture? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I believe Calvin pushed for a spiritual presence in the bread and wine - not sure what he said about posture. I do believe most protestant churches you attain will believe only in a symbolism however - although I could be quite wrong on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 i think spiritual presence is completely unfounded in scripture. Sola Scriptura says it is His body, it is His blood. doesn't say it is His Soul present or it is His Divinity present, that was a later insight by the Church. so basically here the reformers did exactly the opposite of what they set out to do. they accepted the Church's later developement of a doctrine and disregarded the Scriptural doctrine closely related to it. it is truly ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 well does it look like his body Aloysius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 :cool: blessed are they who have not seen yet still believed i believe cause Jesus said it you look with your eyes, i look with my faith. also, for why it doesn't look like Him, i summed up my thoughts on that in the Apologetix board if you wanna know, but if you disagree there you can't debate it there :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 You guys like to try to stick to rational arguments - if it doesn't look like it, it probably isn't. You say that everything about it changes - except it's appearance. That is odd. Here is another question - what happens after it is digested if it really is Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Al, your post was off-subject. Please let's not start arguing about the Eucharist. Tends to end in Blasphemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Circle, tread lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 sorry sigga - back on topic, I don't know Gotta do some research into Calvin and how he gave it in his little city I would think. Or, find some denomination that believes in the spiritual presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 (edited) This link may be helpful in terms of explaining Calvin's understanding of the "spiritual presence." M.Sigga, I'm not all that familiar with Seventh Day Adventist teachings, but my understanding is that many of their teachings are pretty far off from mainstream Christian teaching, i.e., they don't believe in hell, they have unorthodox teachings on atonement, they follow a false teacher, etc. I've not seen anything on how the Catholic Church would categorize them, but every other church I've been a part of has viewed 7DAs as being a cult. As far as a generally recognized posture for accepting communion, most of the churches I've attended have given a measure of respect to communion, some more than others, but there isn't the same respect for the elements that you find in the Catholic Church because the beliefs are vastly different. Presbyterian churches, at least those that generally adhere to Calvin's teaching, are among the most respectful of the sacrament of communion among Protestants, and even they don't treat the elements as being anything special once communion is done. At the last church I attended before converting -- a Presbyterian church -- people would take the bread left over from communion home for lunch. I have never communed in a Lutheran church, and only once in an Anglican church, so I really can't comment on those churches or their beliefs concerning communion. Edited January 10, 2004 by Sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 yes, be very careful with the 7 D.A. all their stuff is based upon prophecy, which fails over and over and over again. yet people still continue to listen and be apart of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 Thanks Everybody for all your answers. I think this question was a little bit too broad b/c lots of different Protestant communions treat communion bread very differently and the Methodists and 7DA are two different extremes. Sojourner that site was really helpful, and it actually brings to mind another question of sorts that still has to do with the original post. Calvin's Sacramentalism Calvin regarded the sacraments of the Old and New Testaments as aids for our faith. Moreover, for Calvin, the sacraments are never to be divorced from the Word. The Word sets forth the promises of God, and the sacraments are seals which guarantee the faithfulness of God to his promises. However, the efficacy of the sacraments operates not only for the benefit of our understanding. Just as the Spirit of God operates through the Word to engender faith in the hearts of the elect, so also the Spirit operating through the sacraments accomplishes in reality that which is signified by them but only in the elect. The Spirit only blesses the faithful. With respect to God's action in the sacraments, sign and reality correspond directly. The sacraments are so adapted by God as to portray in their outward form that which is conferred upon men by him in the spiritual realm. With respect to the manward side, the sacraments serve as a means by which we confess our faith before men.[1] CircleM, I think I remember you saying that you accept some docrtines of Calvinism. How does a Protestant today apply Calvin's idea of Sacramentalism to their own Faith which a lot of times no longer is directly attached to the Reformed or Presbyterian or Calvinist Church? Is it just accepted that his ideas concerning Sacraments is a remnant from Calvin's Catholic past? Sojourner also said that respect for the bread that Jesus is spiritually present is taken home for lunch when the service is over. Why are the elements where Jesus is supposed to be spiritually present not consumed entirely in the Church by the faithful? Is any degree of disrespect acknowledged, or does Jesus leave the elements (bread and wine/juice) when the praying is over? Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Here is another question - what happens after it is digested if it really is Christ? Once the appearance of Bread is gone, the substance of Christ is gone too. I know this is wierd, but I would rather you think, this is wierd, than think "they carp Christ." The Appearances of Bread are not incidental to the Real Presence of Christ, they are necessary. So, when it no longer appears like break (when it's been digested or disolved in water) then it is no longer the Real Presence of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 You guys like to try to stick to rational arguments - if it doesn't look like it, it probably isn't. You say that everything about it changes - except it's appearance. That is odd. Here is another question - what happens after it is digested if it really is Christ? just cuz Jesus looks like bread doesn't mean He's not Jesus in there. if i remember correctly, Jesus looked like a man once, too, but was still completely God. don't let your senses deceive you -- what God says *is* IS, whether we can perceive it or not :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 CircleM, I think I remember you saying that you accept some docrtines of Calvinism. How does a Protestant today apply Calvin's idea of Sacramentalism to their own Faith which a lot of times no longer is directly attached to the Reformed or Presbyterian or Calvinist Church? Is it just accepted that his ideas concerning Sacraments is a remnant from Calvin's Catholic past? Sorry, can't help. I am not familiar with Calvin's doctrines on sacraments at all. What I agree with is his teachings on perseverance of the saints, total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistable grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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