What Faith Are You?

[Resurrexi]

I think by "Roman" they mean that they are Roman Rite.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062299' date='Sep 13 2006, 11:10 PM']
Hey I think Sedevancantists are consistent at least to admit the Popes have changed some of those teachings {especially regarding other religions} since Pius XII. [/quote]
Well that's good to hear...

[quote name='Budge' post='1062299' date='Sep 13 2006, 11:10 PM']Anyhow who do you think is really Pope?

It isnt Pope Michael is it?

[url="http://www.vaticaninexile.com/home.html"]http://www.vaticaninexile.com/home.html[/url] [/quote]
Okay... let's think about this one just a little bit. Sedevacantist means the throne of Peter is empty. How in heck could I be Sedevacantist if I believed this "pope" Michael, was a pope? I wouldn't be Sedevacantist anymore now would I? And how was this "pope" elected? By like 5-6 other people if I remember correctly, and I don't believe any of them were bishops and some (probably most) were laypeople. No. These people are just wacko, as they have their own non-Catholic teachings.

[quote]Anyhow I wish I could understand the psychology that leads on to stay Catholic after realizing the Vatican has gone off the rails....[/quote]
One could say it this way. One becomes Catholic after realizing what happened. That's what I believe I did. I believe I finally entered the Catholic Church after 19 years of thinking I was already in it.

[quote]I'm done with Popes.[/quote]

Yeah I think you've made that pretty clear in your time here .

[quote]Remember I said I easily could have gone the Trad and Sedevancantist way< except I had been born again, and now follow Gods Word as my authority.[/quote]
That's very good. Pray for me that I might be able to do so well as you one day, that I can realize that I have NOT done this. Remember, we all believe we are born again, and that we follow God's Word. One of us is right. If it is you, then pray that I find that truth. You have made a number of decent arguments throughout your time here, at least with the different kinds of evidence you bring up. But it's quite hard for me to accept a faith that seems so bitter as yours seems to me. Faith in Christ is a peaceful faith, a loving faith (even loving of one's enemies). This does not mean let them continue in your error. No, it is good to be here admonishing us if indeed your faith is true. But the way in which you go about leaves something to be desired.

[quote]I even used to post some of my protests on a Catholic Trad board against Catholic interfaith movement, they liked my posts. I used to ask them why are you folks follow men you KNOW are apostates of the Trad ones who werent sede, and asked the Sedes, why even bother with popes anymore?[/quote]

Why bother with popes? Because it is an office instituted by God to lead His people until Christ comes again. Without them we would be in anarchy like the Protestant faiths. Without them we would not be one faith, which is what Christ commanded is to be. We have had popes throughout all of the post-Christ era, many have been bad, many many more than that have been quite good. Men have free will. Popes are men, not gods. They have free will. They can screw up. This doesn't change the fact that without a Pope we are lost.

Edited September 14, 2006 by goldenchild17

[KnightofChrist]

Budge,

Since you charge that the Catholic Church is "satanic" because of worshipping Mary or idol or what have you.

I could just as easily charge that it is "satanic" to override the authority of the Apostles, and gutt out books of the Bible.

Edited September 14, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Budge]

Knight my faith is based on what the apostles taught, not early church fathers, I look right to the New Testament that holds what they taught.

When Peter said...Rise up I am only a man, that tells me all the ring kissing, kneeling before the Pope is wrong.

From what I see the Catholic clergy has about as much to do with the apostles as nothing. They live nothing like them, they teach nothing like them and they act nothing like them.

[quote]
Why bother with popes? Because it is an office instituted by God to lead His people until Christ comes again. Without them we would be in anarchy like the Protestant faiths. Without them we would not be one faith, which is what Christ commanded is to be. We have had popes throughout all of the post-Christ era, many have been bad, many many more than that have been quite good. Men have free will. Popes are men, not gods. They have free will. They can screw up. This doesn't change the fact that without a Pope we are lost.[/quote]

The papacy has nothing to do with scriptural teachings and is based on the twisting of one verse. Did you know God is referred to as the ROCK DOZENS of times in scripture?

But then there is contradiction in following an office that has failed....sedevancantists believe that the Popes have become apostates and heretics. To say oh the chair is empty but still follow an empty chair makes no logical sense.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062565' date='Sep 14 2006, 10:26 AM']The papacy has nothing to do with scriptural teachings and is based on the twisting of one verse. Did you know God is referred to as the ROCK DOZENS of times in scripture? [/quote]

One verse? Hmm... I don't suppose you would actually be open to debating this one with me? In a different thread of course. I only do 1 on 1 debates right now. Let me know what you think.

[quote]But then there is contradiction in following an office that has failed....sedevancantists believe that the Popes have become apostates and heretics. To say oh the chair is empty but still follow an empty chair makes no logical sense.[/quote]

Umm no. I don't believe they were ever popes to begin with so it's kind of hard to say I believe that the popes became apostates... Maybe you should actually find out what I believe before making wild theories. But this really isn't the place for it. I'm not even allowed to debate this issue on phatmass so either take it to email, or my message board. Or leave it alone.

[Budge]

Wheres your message board, Ill come over and debate this with you.

I find following an empty chair to be incredible illogic.

Why not just be a Christian and set Popes and deceivers aside.

People seem to have a very hard time of making that leap in putting total trust in God, rather then to put trust in men they think are going to lead them to heaven.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I am First Assembly of Jewish Muslim Baptizing Brotherhood of Dallas, in the Evangelical Free Philadephia Congrationalist Eskimo Union, Presbythan Second Order Sectarian Synod.


nah.

Roman Catholic, baby!

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='xTrishaxLynnx' post='1062282' date='Sep 13 2006, 10:57 PM']
Roman Catholic
[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061820' date='Sep 12 2006, 07:59 PM']
None of the above.

I belong to the same general group that is converting 400 Latin Americans an hour, which apparently isn't worth mentioning, despite the fact that by the ADMISSION of the Latin American Conference of Bishops, is converting 3,500,000 each, and every year....

Wonder why the group that is the FASTEST growing Christian group, was omitted totally?

Perhaps a form of spiritual blindness?
[/quote]


Bah! Seen many AG/non-dom churches. Revolving door. They attract a lot, which is a good thing, but it is more of a Christianity-lite (Joel Osteen). Long term AGs seem to be the exception. A lot tend to church-hop every 2-3 years and a LOT more leave for denominations with deeper understandings of the Truth. GASP - some even become Catholic (know 5 of the latter myself).

My wife goes to an AG church. In the last 10 years, it has shrunk from 500 to 150 peeps and there are about 10 folks there that were there when I first met her.

Where's the stats on peeps leaving yer denomination? You are very fond of pointing out how many peeps-that-call-themselves-Catholic-but-never-believed-in-the-Real-Presence leave the faith....how 'bout yers? *genuinely curious*

BTW - fastest growing does not impress me, for one. Many sects rise and fall...but how many stand the test of time? Please list for me the number of Christian denominations, churches, sects, cults, etc that are older than 600 years....oi know how many, but can you admit it?

While we are on that, can you list how many were started by Christ himself? (same list BTW). Or even...how many even CLAIM to have been started by Christ himself? (once again, same list)

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062638' date='Sep 14 2006, 01:08 PM']
Wheres your message board, Ill come over and debate this with you.

I find following an empty chair to be incredible illogic.

Why not just be a Christian and set Popes and deceivers aside.

People seem to have a very hard time of making that leap in putting total trust in God, rather then to put trust in men they think are going to lead them to heaven.
[/quote]

umm because there's this small little thing that you might've heard of... It's called Scripture. Ring a bell? Yeah, that's why we believe it. . www.crownofmartyrs.com/forums

You can put a topic there in the debate section somewhere. Or otherwise just start a one-on-one topic in the debate table here. Whatever you want to do. If it would be easier to just check one forum set it up here.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1062673' date='Sep 14 2006, 01:49 PM']
Bah! Seen many AG/non-dom churches. Revolving door. They attract a lot, which is a good thing, but it is more of a Christianity-lite (Joel Osteen). Long term AGs seem to be the exception. A lot tend to church-hop every 2-3 years and a LOT more leave for denominations with deeper understandings of the Truth. GASP - some even become Catholic (know 5 of the latter myself).

My wife goes to an AG church. In the last 10 years, it has shrunk from 500 to 150 peeps and there are about 10 folks there that were there when I first met her.

Where's the stats on peeps leaving yer denomination? You are very fond of pointing out how many peeps-that-call-themselves-Catholic-but-never-believed-in-the-Real-Presence leave the faith....how 'bout yers? *genuinely curious*

BTW - fastest growing does not impress me, for one. Many sects rise and fall...but how many stand the test of time? Please list for me the number of Christian denominations, churches, sects, cults, etc that are older than 600 years....oi know how many, but can you admit it?

While we are on that, can you list how many were started by Christ himself? (same list BTW). Or even...how many even CLAIM to have been started by Christ himself? (once again, same list)
[/quote]
it'd be interesting to hear a Protestant response to this

[Budge]

[quote]
umm because there's this small little thing that you might've heard of... It's called Scripture. Ring a bell? Yeah, that's why we believe it. wink.gif. www.crownofmartyrs.com/forums [/quote]

Not if you follow an empty CHAIR or any chair of any mere man....

[Eutychus]

[quote] Why bother with popes? Because it is an office instituted by God to lead His people until Christ comes again. Without them we would be in anarchy like the Protestant faiths[/quote]

May I point out, that as a 'Sede' you ARE in anarchy right now, JUST LIKE the Protestants.

The only difference is we have gotten to the point where we know that there IS ONE HEAD of the spiritual church, Jesus, and pretty boys in palaces haven't done much but screw things up, over and over.

All men will go bad, given enough rope, and popeonaropeadope, as history has proven, shows that the quote attributed to "Lord Acton" that "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." is totally true.

{ most don't know that quote actually referrs to Pius the Proud declaring himself INFALLIBEL at the railroad he convened and thuggeried his way to his demand to be elevated to demi-god statues. { research how many bodies were pulled out of the lake during this confab, that might give you a hint at just what was going on then...}

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1063184' date='Sep 14 2006, 11:52 PM']
Not if you follow an empty CHAIR or any chair of any mere man....
[/quote]
Not following you... Anyways either set up a thread here in debate table for just you and me or we can do it through email if you don't want it to be public or whatever, doesn't matter to me. But let's not hijack this thread any further.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063196' date='Sep 15 2006, 12:02 AM']
May I point out, that as a 'Sede' you ARE in anarchy right now, JUST LIKE the Protestants.
[/quote]

mmmkay. The only thing we have in common is that we both "protest" the same Church. That's nothing surprising as I protest yours and you protest mine and just about everybody protests everybody else's. No, the only groups that are in a bit more of a predicament are groups such as SSPX who accept the Novus Ordo Church but who are not in communion with it. They would be closer to defining anarchy. I would be in anarchy if I protested my government. I would not be in anarchy if I protested the government of another country/nation. I see this situation as the same thing. I would be in anarchy if I protested the leadership of the faith I belonged to. I am not in anarchy if I protest the leadership of another faith. I am not in the Novus Ordo faith. I am not in anarchy because I protest their leadership. Same as how I am not in anarchy although I protest the Lutheran leadership or Mormon leadership or Muslim leadership. If I was protesting the leadership of my own faith then I would be in anarchy. However that isn't the case.

With that said, it's time to stop hijacking this thread.

Edited September 15, 2006 by goldenchild17

[goldenchild17]

So... Do you want to start a thread or not?