Mormon Or Roman Catholic ~ Can U Tell?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1062553' date='Sep 14 2006, 10:43 AM']
"Individuals do not make up the whole Church." So. What the heck is that supposed to mean?

The point is, the actual normative practice of the majority of the Church members actually reject the teachings of the Church. The behavior obscures the belief. Who wants to belong to an organization that says 'Do as I say, not as I do.' and you have to go to great lengths to figure out what the heck the organization really says.
[/quote]
The practice of individual people in North American parishes should not detract from the truth of the Church's teaching. It was not a hindrance to St. Francis or St. Benedict - they chose the route of renewel, not rejection. To use a loaded analogy: Does the existence of criminals mean that US Law is a failed, worthless body that should be discarded?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thedude' post='1062613' date='Sep 14 2006, 11:12 AM']
The practice of individual people in North American parishes should not detract from the truth of the Church's teaching. It was not a hindrance to St. Francis or St. Benedict - they chose the route of renewel, not rejection. To use a loaded analogy: Does the existence of criminals mean that US Law is a failed, worthless body that should be discarded?
[/quote]The analogy would be more accurate if it was stated thusly:
If 1/2 the police stations were run by people who regulary broke serious laws, does that mean that US Law Enforcement is a failed worthless body that should be discarded?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062564' date='Sep 14 2006, 11:18 AM']
How many like Rev are led to Rome through vain philosophies?
What is Volf eccesiology? WOLF? Moltman? Sheesh....

Jesus preached against the Scribes for a reason.[/quote][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_LaHaye"]LaHaye[/url]? [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Warren"]Warren[/url]? All the latest Baptist money-makers?

Passing judgment on Revprodeji reveals your double-standard. When a non-Evangelical or non-Independent Baptist studies the Holy Scriptures, it's called "vain philosophies." When an Evangelical or Independent Baptist studies Holy Scriptures, it shows the superiority of your denominations to "spread the Word."

You see what you want to see.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1062614' date='Sep 14 2006, 01:15 PM']
The analogy would be more accurate if it was stated thusly:
If 1/2 the police stations were run by people who regulary broke serious laws, does that mean that US Law Enforcement is a failed worthless body that should be discarded?
[/quote]
I think that saying 1/2 of parishes have serious obedience issues would be inflating the problem. Even if only the Church of Rome was still faithful to Apostolic doctrine, and all the rest were lost, it would not be grounds to dismiss the Church. The Church has gone through many trials (Arianism and the like) and has come out stronger.

Edited September 14, 2006 by thedude

[Budge]

[quote]
"
The practice of individual people in North American parishes should not detract from the truth of the Church's teaching. It was not a hindrance to St. Francis or St. Benedict - they chose the route of renewel, not rejection. To use a loaded analogy: Does the existence of criminals mean that US Law is a failed, worthless body that should be discarded?
[/quote]

Lets say the people down at Fellowship Baptist have put up a statue of Molech and are burning incense to it, and offering sacrifices to it, and have invited the Dalai Lama to come teach Tibetan Buddhism in a series of Sunday workshops. Should I stay within that church? {a BIG RESOUNDING NO}

I dont follow criminals, and deceivers full stop, that includes BAD Baptist preachers.

If we want to use the anology of criminals, the Vatican is like the MAFIA, they have proven criminal action again and again starting with Vatican bank corruptions, the hidden sex scandals and hiding of sex abusers and obstruction of justice.

Why would you folks have me follow criminals?
.
[quote]
Jesus preached against the Scribes for a reason.
LaHaye? Warren? All the latest Baptist money-makers?[/quote]

Guess what?

I have warned about BOTH LaHaye and Warren.

I would not be in the church of either of those men.

You forget Im not held into bondage to whatever those of my particular denomination do.

When a man like Warren joins with the UN {his P.E.A.C. E proposal} or LaHaye writes errors in the Left Behind books {google Gods Wrath on Left Behind} I am not beholden to false leaders. You folks have to follow the Pope {unless you become sedevancantists] no matter what the Pope does.

That is what is so weird about Catholics now, they cant handle any error being exposed, every charlatan, crook and creep is to be defended to their last breathe. Well Im not stuck in that position. I can openly expose error even for those who claim the name Baptist.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062634' date='Sep 14 2006, 02:05 PM']Guess what?

I have warned about BOTH LaHaye and Warren.

I would not be in the church of either of those men.

You forget Im not held into bondage to whatever those of my particular denomination do.

When a man like Warren joins with the UN {his P.E.A.C. E proposal} or LaHaye writes errors in the Left Behind books {google Gods Wrath on Left Behind} I am not beholden to false leaders. You folks have to follow the Pope {unless you become sedevancantists] no matter what the Pope does.

That is what is so weird about Catholics now, they cant handle any error being exposed, every charlatan, crook and creep is to be defended to their last breathe. Well Im not stuck in that position. I can openly expose error even for those who claim the name Baptist.[/quote]The issue isn't whether an individual can identify the errors of a co-religionist. Anyone can do that.

The question is, upon what authority can you assert your position? It all rests on your personal interpretation of the Bible. As an "independent" Baptist, the unwritten message is that you mean to distance yourself from "errant" mainline Baptists, and therefore divide from the Baptist view of the "body of Christ", the Church. No authority...no unity...no consistency...no substance. Those are the the difficulties I see in being in your position.

[Budge]

[quote]The issue isn't whether an individual can identify the errors of a co-religionist. Anyone can do that.[/quote]

So why dont you?

[quote]

The question is, upon what authority can you assert your position? It all rests on your personal interpretation of the Bible. As an "independent" Baptist, the unwritten message is that you mean to distance yourself from "errant" mainline Baptists, and therefore divide from the Baptist view of the "body of Christ", the Church. No authority...no unity...no consistency...no substance. Those are the the difficulties I see in being in your position.
[/quote]

I know how to read, the Bible is not that hard to understand and I believe all Christians as scripture states have the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I am unified with all Baptists who are born again under the blood. I do not consider the only Baptists going to heaven to be independent ones.

The problem with Catholics is they think BUILDINGS and BUREAUCRACY mark the boundaries of Christian unity.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062968' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:49 PM']So why dont you?[/quote]I do criticize other Catholics. But, I do so when there is a constructive goal in mind. It's hard for me to see eye-to-eye with someone who seems to take joy in pointing out the failings or [b]perceived failings[/b] of others ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians13.htm#v6"]see 1 Cor 13:6[/url]).

Maybe a parallel example would help. If your son or daughter received a bad grade in school, how would you react if someone repeatedly brought this up in order to show how you were a poor parent. How long would it take before you said, "This person isn't criticizing with the hope of helping me or my child. They are just mean-spirited."?

[quote name='Budge' post='1062968' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:49 PM']I know how to read, the Bible is not that hard to understand and I believe all Christians as scripture states have the leading of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]I'll have to disagree with you here--the Holy Bible is not always easy to understand. Not only does Holy Scriptures show that an individual cannot rely on him/herself as a final authority; there is empirical proof that it isn't "easy to understand" for Christians. Name almost [i]any[/i] topic of Faith or morals regarding Christian doctrine, and there's a good chance that some portion of protestantism takes each side of the argument. Each group uses the Scriptures to defend their position.

[quote name='Budge' post='1062968' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:49 PM']I am unified with all Baptists who are born again under the blood. I do not consider the only Baptists going to heaven to be independent ones.[/quote]If you were unified with all Baptists, you wouldn't be in a splinter "independent" denomination. Why be independent of the Church? And, if "Baptist" is a man-made denomination, why look for fellowship within it's restrictions? Maybe this is why there are big defections from Baptist churches to non-denominational churches.

[quote name='Budge' post='1062968' date='Sep 14 2006, 09:49 PM']The problem with Catholics is they think BUILDINGS and BUREAUCRACY mark the boundaries of Christian unity.[/quote]Not really. "Buildings and bureaucracy" don't define the Catholic Church. Our creedal statements are an important part of our unity in Christ. The Church is the ordinary means for us to be members of the Body of Christ, and it is a gift through which we receive God's grace. I know that you don't agree with that; but I'm just sharing with you what I believe as a Catholic.

[N/A Gone]

If you wanna make the issue "authority of a denomination" than understand that the protestant denomination was invented for a temporary purpose. Luthor had the full intention of coming back to the Catholic faith after it fixed practice issues he had (Braaten, Mother Church. One of the most respected Lutheran theologians in the world)

Volf and Moltman are two of the most respected protestant theologians in the WORLD. Im a trained PROTESTANT who is a catholic by faith. I have never had formal catholic training. But intense protestant training. My point is not that they are the form of faith I desire. I just think that if you have a serious objection to the Catholic faith than bring it in an educated fashion. The only people that would accuse those two men of "dancing on the head of pins" is an uneducated and unrespectful person that might as well be at a country club than a church. These two men have developed most of the current concepts in protestant seminars. No one with any respect in the protestant community would insult them like you did. Whoever "we" is, do not have a proper understanding of even there own denomination.

Without knowing me, or any of these theologians you still write them off for being snob, having an elevated ego and a distorted view of ones reality. Do you hear yourself? You claim a baptist background...correct? Then why have I not read anything from you coming from a baptist perspective? Street evangelism and the coffee house marketing you flatter does not make you christian. I know plenty of Multi-levels that can use coffee house marketing, warm and fuzzy preaching and street evangelism that does not focus on truth and issues but perverts from munipulation. I have a dear friend who teaches at Union Seminary and he says the cancer of the protestant community is people who do not understand their theology, does not understand their own belief yet belong to churches in the same nature that people belong to clubs and have prejudices in the same function as fans of a sports team.

I think it is funny that our two resident protestant authorities do not even know two of the more influenctial and respected protestant educaters in the world. Your ignorance does not make you a saint. I made the point that I studied as a protestant. I got my reputation as a protestant (Ironically baptist. Baptist General Con. Under the direction of Dr. Greg Boyd. With the influence of Paul eddy and others. I was a strong christian as a protestant. My faith grew into catholicism. It was fulfilled in catholicism. But my upbringing was in your community. And I know I am not the only one here. But I hated what I thought catholicism was. What I heared professors say about catholicism. It was not until I was stripped of those misconceptions that I gave catholicism a chance. I researched and came to an understanding that the patristic church is the catholic church. That Catholicism has the "birth right" and I then put the faith under a microscope going through the catechism in a roughly 16 month work with other protestants. It was emotional and I realised that the catholic faith is from scripture. I learned the truth about the reformation and I started to see an intense prejudice against catholics from supposed protestant sources. Your problem isnt catholicism. It is that catholicism is a light that is easier to not look directly at and truely understand. But rather convince yourself it is something else. If in your mind catholicism is the devil then you do not need to test your faith against it. You can continue autonomy and root for your home team. But the lord did tell us to seek truth. Not to accuse those of seeking truth as being wrong because they do not agree with you

[Laudate_Dominum]

[kamiller42]

Wow. Revprodeji, that was a wonderful story and explanation. God bless you!
[quote]If in your mind catholicism is the devil then you do not need to test your faith against it. You can continue autonomy and root for your home team. But the lord did tell us to seek truth. Not to accuse those of seeking truth as being wrong because they do not agree with you[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1063231' date='Sep 14 2006, 11:48 PM']

[/quote]


thanks for the love bro....

but I did not mean to kill the thread...

[Eutychus]

Moltman reads like a left wing tree hugger. I suppose you are a product of the EMERGING CHURCH movement, where you seek the experience more than the word, right?

[quote]The Spirit of Life

A Universal Affirmation

Human life- and surely not human life alone- only becomes living, happy in its livingness, if it affirms other life and is itself affirmed.

To say this sounds like a cliché.

[u]Yet it is by no means a matter of course.

In view of the destruction which men and women are inflicting upon nature, and in the face of the collective suicide to which human beings are leading humanity, it is difficult to believe this simple statement, and more difficult still to live accordingly.

Whether humanity has a future, or whether it is going to become extinct in the next few centuries depends upon our will to live- and that means our absolute will for our one indivisible life.

Whether humanity ought to live, or ought to become extinct, is a question which cannot be answered through the dictates of rational expediency, but only out of a love for life.[/u]

Even now we experience personally and disjointly so much blighted and ruined life that to affirm life whole heatedly is difficult. We have got used to death, at least to the death of other creatures and other people.

And to get used to death is the beginning of freezing into lifelessness oneself.

So the essential thing is to affirm life- the life of other creatures the life of other people- our own lives.

If we do not, there will be no rebirth and no restoration of the life that is threatened.

But anyone who really says "YES" to life says "NO" to war.

Anyone who really loves life says "NO" to poverty. So the people who truly affirm and love life take up the struggle against violence and injustice.

They do not confirm. THEY RESIST!!.

Jurgen Moltman. [/quote]

He reads like a spaced out hippy, the kind I went to college with, then they grew up and became professors themselves.

And you are calling this loon with a Gia complex, one of the premier theolgians of our age?

Sure, maybe in the world you come from, not in mine. Sorry.

If you actually want to read and learn something useful, toss those two, go to your library, check out the four volume set on ROMANS, by Donald Grey Barnhouse.

[N/A Gone]

are you serious? painful minority on your part.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061829' date='Sep 12 2006, 08:13 PM']
Methinks you need to invest in some research materials....then read them also!

[img]http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/1891117122.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1056536082_.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Masonic-Occult-Symbols-Illustrated-Burns/dp/1891117122/sr=8-2/qid=1158106357/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-3527306-2242237?ie=UTF8&s=books"]MORE HERE - AMAZON LINK[/url]

-------------------------------------------------------------
Actually it doesn't. However we believe in good music, sound, and the best in Audio Visual and comfortable seats { seeing as how our services are generally a little short of two hours, they are appreciated. }

And we see OUR churches as community FIRST, so we normally have a good library, a bang up gym, classrooms galore, bookstore, and the newest trend is an onsite coffee shop for socialization. { Understand that 30 minutes AFTER our service ends, you will find about 30% of the congregation STILL there, greeting, meeting, socializing and getting to know each other...unlike the Indy 500 atmosphere that prevails 30 SECONDS after Mass ends...}
[/quote]
Well, if it's a book about Masons, it must be true.

It's still not the eye of Horus--note the lack of mascara.