Anna Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Just wondering if some of our "pentecostal experts" would weigh in on this...Are you familiar with the Holy Laughter / Holy Drunkenness, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto Blessing, and other such movements? What do you think of these? Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 What are prayer handkerchiefs? Protestant sacramentals? Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 i dont know, sounds like that garbage that some of the televangelist thiefs sell on tv.... green prosperity handkerchiefs, miracle spring water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I've heard about - done some study as well. Was interested in tongues/healing/etc. and spiritual gifts for a while. Read Jack Deere's book 'Surprised by the Power of the Spirit', also Grudems works, and some of John Wimbers stuff. A bunch of misc articles, talked to a bunch of my teachers as well - did a lot of exegesis of Scripture. Concluded there are none today that have any gifts that are miraculous. God still works miraculous things - but none have the gifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 i recall the Charismatics did their praying over thing to my friend and she started laughing and couldn't stop for the next like hour. i think they told her it was the joy of the Spirit or something, i'm not quite sure about it though :ph34r: i don't participate in the Charismatic stuff cuz it scares me and it's not necessary to my salvation. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muschi Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Circlemaster- Greetings and God bless! Could you PM me about your studies and give me a brief over-view of how you concluded that the supernatural gifts spoken of in this thread don't exist as you have come to understand them in this thread? I would be grateful. thanks! Now to all: Coming from a Pentecostal background one would think I'd be a Charismatic, but I swing in the opposite direction. I love the solemnity of the Mass in a more "traditional" setting. (I have no quarrel with the Novus Ordo Mass though so I don't mean traditional in that sense). A more solemn setting allows me to lift my mind and heart to God in a way that is more focused and amesome than in an atmosphere that is "charged" mainly with seemingly rampant emotionalism and never could relate to that and therefore always felt that I was either "unworthy" incapable of "receiving from the Lord". This used to be a source of great pain for me. Maybe that's why I'm not fond of the Charimatic Movement. I don't really like it personally, but I stop short of "condemning" it with my opinions because that's all they are: my opinions. - God bless! - Muschi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Muschi, Are you familiar with any of the movements I cited above? Does anyone have details on these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 It seems that those who put down Catholic sacramentals and relics use similar items themselves! They even call them "sacramentals!" http://www.materialreligion.org/journal/handkerchief.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Sacramentals while denying the SACRAMENTS..hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 that's really weird, i've never heard of that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Just wondering if some of our "pentecostal experts" would weigh in on this...Are you familiar with the Holy Laughter / Holy Drunkenness, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto Blessing, and other such movements? What do you think of these? Being a Pentecostal now, you have to ascertain what within your own group is "of God" and what is not. This is and has been, endlessly debated within Pentecostal circles. Of course, there is opinion all over the place with this, and with us, having no dominating central authority that can impose a unifed codified approved and uniform doctrinal distinctive, there is never really going to be a true resolution on these. Now. Having wiffled and waffled [my version of Magisterium] I will present my personal opinions, stated as such, from a Pentecostal with a firm grasp on reality, who will do NOTHING weird unless the Bible clearly and unequivically states that we must...grin. First, let me state for the record, ,that I see many many real parallels between rank and file Catholics and Pentecostals. Odd? Well, look at the propensity of some Catholics to see visions, manifestations, want stigmatics, see Mary everywhere? See the propensity of the same mindset within Pentecostalism to see visions, manifestations, want outpourings, see the Holy Spirit everywhere? To ME, and I'm only speaking of my own PERSONAL opinion, you are seeing the sort of person that would NEVER survive on this board, here you have for the most part, intellectuals, or head people. They want information, they value the written word, authority, and historicity over the intangible. But there are many, and they can be found in all denominations that live for the spiritual. We have in Pentecostalism, gathered up more than our share of these. And our leadership, can, and often does, USE that to their own gain, sadly. Now, to break down these various movements by location. The Brownsville Revival, in Pensacola Florida is more or less a normal Pentecostal movement, there are exhuberances, tounges, and lively worship style. It had it's high point a few years ago, and spawned a tremendous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, regardless of the particular merits of the preaching, it got thousands of nonbelievers to commit to Christ and was widely watched, viewed, and copied around dying church's, many, many of which then experienced tremendous growth. You can view a complete online worship service here, on your computer, put it on in the background as you work here and learn a little, like me watching EWTN, you need to actually learn more about US as you expect us to learn about you...right? CLICK HERE TO LISTEN What can safely be said about Brownsville, is that they certainly have INVOLVED participants, go look ... try to find a bored attendee there because they are required to attend church, if they have one distinctive, it is a love for worship, and that is something that we all could learn from. Good music too. You will notice them actually dancing around, looks strange, but in truth, dancing for God is totally biblical, Jews do it all the time, and the Messianic congregation I go to off and on does it too, they believe that the dancing in the outpouring of love and happiness in worship goes back to David and his muscians. So, don't discount dancing as unprincipaled and biblical [ I actually would like it if MY church which is Pentecostal did MORE exhubarence, I could handle that ... Now for the Toronto Blessing. That one is generally less well thought of as being legitimate. It has been ostracised even by mainstream Pentecostal movements as being more of man, and less of the Holy Spirit. Many things there, being ROUTINELY and ALWAYS lined up for "Slayings-in-the Spirit", the rolling around, barking, and such are just plain people acting out. Our version of people that if they were Catholics would be finding The Virgin Mary appearing in a Tortilla. We have them too, we laugh at them, and responsible Pentecostals ALLOW them the freedom to do this, some encourage people to go, perhaps even get caught up in it a tad, most will sort it out, and the better ones will take the best from it, the enthusiasm, excitement, and move this to other churchs, leaving the oddities behind. See, we are not insistant on central authority, we believe that people vary, and one version of unified worship service isn't going to keep people in church. If they don't happen to agree with that style, they still may "call themselves" a Catholic, Pentecostal, Methodist, Presbyterian...whatever. But if the butt isn't in the pew, are they really? If others want, I can and will continue here, being critical OF things I happen to believe in, and OUR goofies. See, I see absolutely no need to defend everything, to me, the differences are a strength, a joy, a blessing bestowed by God. If he wanted only one style of worship, he would have created one style of people. He didn't. And since we are created in HIS image, I would guess that He had something in mind about us being unique, different, and motivated by different drummers as it is colloquially stated. Lova ya all. PS: why are all my posts going 'poof' .... they really are not all that threatening, I'm being as HONEST here about my denomination warts and goofies, as I have been on yours, warts and goofies. Fair is fair, both ways. Paul clearly teaches in his writings that outpourings of the Holy Spirit CAN be disruptive, even if real, and by implication [never actually stated by him] many are just "acting out" for attention, and need to be watched, and grin, dare I say it, stopped? Hey, people are people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 What are prayer handkerchiefs? Simple, and biblical, totally. First, where this practice derives from: Acts 19 11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. So, the handkerchief or other cloth is taken to church elders, when a person cannot be physically present, and prayers are offered, holding the cloth. That cloth is later given to the person. No one believes it has any magical power, but most serious believers that hands on praying for other believers has some intercessory effect with God, and that is just an extension of that belief. It is generally a poor substitute for direct congregational hands on prayer, and all accept it as a poor substitute, but if the person isn't able to be physically there, or you want to show another that you were praying for them, sending them a handkerchief in the mail, that you had your prayer group pray over FOR that person, is nice. It imparts no healing power, and is viewed as a token of prayer, a symbolic visible version, for those that like it. Some TV ministers push this one, they use it for fundraising, and that is just wrong, but hey, we got our hucksters too, only we are allowed to mention that, unlike others.... Best. Hope that helps answer this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 bruce, what do u think of the notion often found in pentecostal circles that you DO NOT have the Holy Spirit within you until you speak in tongues? (not baiting, i promise. just curious what ur stance is on that) also, do u really think that many catholics see visions of mary, or hope that they will? besides that comment, i am generally thankful for u honesty in this thread. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 bruce, what do u think of the notion often found in pentecostal circles that you DO NOT have the Holy Spirit within you until you speak in tongues? (not baiting, i promise. just curious what ur stance is on that) OK. Now sit paitently while I go through a personal tale. I am NOT by nature a spirit person, I'm a head guy, intellectually oriented but not a classic intellectual, if it isn't "right" I run hard out the door. So, when I stumbled into a Pentecostal church, I didn't even KNOW what Pentecostal meant, so finding that the people there were different....hard to actually say, but they were INVOLVED emotionally, in service, they were THERE, not just there. That is VERY hard to put into text, [you can see an extreme version of this in that like I gave, those people ARE worshipping, not just "attending mass/church" ] Anyway, as is my normal style when I wanted to learn about this church, I went to the denominational website, and some of the stuff there was GREAT, wow, right what I wanted, some other stuff, like Tounges...TOUNGES!?? What the heck are tounges [weird, goofy, oooh ooh stuff?] so I had to go MASSIVE on this one, fast. I devoured every book written on this I could find, the Pentecostal materials, gifts and manifestations of the spirit consumed my BRAIN for months, before I would even consider, DOING any of this "stuff" Now, I didn't take this lightly, spent more time on sites telling you this was WRONG than on sites approving of it. I know all the "rules, conditions, uses, abuses, and biblical exhortations, and constraints" upon tounges, or more rightly called praying in the Holy Spirit. Is it real? Yes. It is so totally a part of the conversion experience in Acts that it actually is DEFINED as the start of the organized church. Now, where almost everyone gets it wrong, is in two areas. The first is speaking in FORIEGN LANGAUGE, like the 120 did in scene in Acts on Pentecost. That is very rare, there are recorded cases, who knows if they are real, but I believe they are, but RARE in the extreme, so let's set that aside. Secondly, where it is unbiblical, is in public, it IS biblical, but there are many, many constraints imposed by PAUL, in Corinitians, but the funny thing is, when outpourings are recorded in Acts, they ARE NOT contrained by the requirement for interpretation. So, that isn't as settled as some think. I have done tounges, in fact, do it daily. How? Privately, at home, by myself, with a closed door. It is real. Something happens. When I pray conventionally, as I do daily too, I get a serene acceptance, a peace with God. When touges are introduced, it is different....it really is impossible to verbalise, but the best I can do is that I tremble, a physical effect, being introduced in me, a NON EXHUBERANT person, I never ever, get carried away otherwise, I'm restrained to point of being anal...grin. If you want more infomation, on the proof texts, bible versions, proper use, abuse, and realities, I'm game. Ask away. also, do u really think that many catholics see visions of mary, or hope that they will? besides that comment, i am generally thankful for u honesty in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 bruce, i don't think u answered my question. do u think that a person does not have the Holy Spirit within them UNTIL they speak in tongues? thank you for your story.......it was interesting pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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