To Budge

[Budge]

[quote]

Two comments one for each paragraph

1) If the Catholic Church was started by Christ on Peter, and as you claim that the Church was in error from the beginning then how can you trust ANY of the Bible, since the men you said we in erroe were the ones who wrote the books. I mean Peter, Paul, John ect.
[/quote]

Because I trust in God's Word.

I know men write fallible history and the "winners" of history change things to suit their own interests.
[font="Book Antiqua"]
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.[/font]

[quote]
2) Again if all you get out of the Church is rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies then you have not listened to the Holy Spirit. Liturgies are important for our worship of God. The OT teaches so many rituals, they are not meant to distract, but help us heal and love God. Take incense is it NECESSARY? No, Does it help us show our love for God? yes. How do we know so, the OT Rituals for incense tells us burning incense is pleasing to God, he even gives a formula that one should follow, and if they use it for ANY purpose other than worshiping him they were to be cast out into the wilderness.[/quote]

This verse sums up while your rituals, rites, middleman and ceremonies failed for me. To me they are only a form of godliness, all STYLE and NO SUBSTANCE.

2Ti 3:5 [size=4]Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[/size]

[quote]
. Please pray with me now that the kids all over the United States in bad RE classes are not turned away from the Truth that God has given the Church, and that they learn of his love for them.[/quote]

The kids in my RE class were all agnostics with one outspoken atheist. They were already lost long before I got there. Most of them told me they found church boring and meaningless to their lives, and did not feel that God cared.
I snuck in as much as I could about God, in the dull boring lesson plans which I was not allowed to deviate from but since I was not born again yet, was soon to be, I did not have the Holy Spirit to share with those kids. I have prayed for them since then.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Budge

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Yes Budge having the form of Godliness, but denying the power turn away...

Catholic liturgy does not deny the POWER of God. in Fact isn't the Mass about the Power of God? The Eucharist IS Christ's Body and Blood given to us. I see Prtoestant communion as a form of godliness that denies the power.

[Eutychus]

[quote] You still have not responded to my (biblical) evidence that the devil can also quote scripture...[/quote]

Yes, absolutely, he can.

Unlike many of the 12 year old popes.

[Budge]

[quote]Catholic liturgy does not deny the POWER of God. in Fact isn't the Mass about the Power of God? The Eucharist IS Christ's Body and Blood given to us. I see Prtoestant communion as a form of godliness that denies the power.[/quote]

Yes it does.

In every other Biblical TRUE miracle something happens.

The Catholic clergy have to come up with excuses like Transubstantiation to convince the deluded a MIRACLE has really happened, even though you cant, see, hear, smell or taste it.

Its like the Israelites really SWAM across the RED SEA, got on the banks and then said GEE LOOK GOD SPLIT THE RED SEA, WE JUST IMAGINED WE GOT WET! THE ACCIDENTS WERE REALLY DRY LAND......

Only Catholicism would have folks worship an INERT OBJECT as being God!

[img]http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/images/holy-communion.jpg[/img]

Edited September 12, 2006 by Budge

[Justified Saint]

Strictly speaking the Eucharist is not necessarily a miracle since a miracle by definition is something that doesn't happen often -- something extra-ordinary.

Christ has given us the command to celebrate his death and rising from the dead and thus the sacrament is celebrated in obdience. That doesn't mean it rules out divine and supernatural intervetion and in that sense it can be called miraculous. It is just like the commandment to love. We should always be creatures of love and love is truly divine. I suspect that by the fundamentalist definition nothing [i]really happens[/i] when one loves.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Eutychus]

[quote] Isa 2:8

Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:[/quote]

[img]http://www.ponkawonka.com/sample/christian/preview/pre_christian-photo-1-131-2.jpg[/img]

[quote]Hebrews 9:11 (KJV) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, [u]not made with hands[/u] [/quote]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1061545' date='Sep 12 2006, 04:54 PM']
The Catholic clergy have to come up with excuses like Transubstantiation to convince the deluded a MIRACLE has really happened, even though you cant, see, hear, smell or taste it.[/quote]
Not all of us are doubting Thomases who need to stick our finger in the Lord's side and in his palms to believe he has risen. Faith comes before understanding.

[quote] 24
Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25
So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."
26
Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe."
28
17 Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29
18 Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
John 20:24-29
[/quote]
I understand the urge to satisfy the senses in the presence of a miracle. If you wish, you can savor the effects of Eucharist delivered in the communion wafer, which is what you can see, feel, smell, and taste.
[quote]Its like the Israelites really SWAM across the RED SEA, got on the banks and then said GEE LOOK GOD SPLIT THE RED SEA, WE JUST IMAGINED WE GOT WET! THE ACCIDENTS WERE REALLY DRY LAND......[/quote]
If you keep reading Exodus, you will find numerous examples of God's disappointment in the Israelites for failing to believe without seeing. He, being kind and compassionate, performs miracles for their own sake, not His own. If the hearts of the Israelites were properly ordered, they would believe without demanding proof.

[quote]Only Catholicism would have folks worship an INERT OBJECT as being God![/quote]
It is not the object being worshipped. It is its supernatural contents, Jesus present within.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061577' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:13 PM']
[quote]Hebrews 9:11 (KJV) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands[/quote]
[/quote]
The Catholic church does not build Christ with hands. The communion wafer is made by hands, but are simply wafers of bread without Christ. Christ is what makes simple bread into Eucharist bread.

And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "[b]This [u]is[/u] my body[/b], which is for you; [b]do this[/b] in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV)

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Budge how then do you explain the Eucharistic Micacles, where scientific studies have SHOWN that what looks like bread is actual heart tissue, or wine that actually has turned biologically into blood? what about a host the bleeds. I suppose you think these are all doctored up things to fool people into believing Christ was Salvcation for the world.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' post='1061643' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:09 PM']
Budge how then do you explain the Eucharistic Micacles, where scientific studies have SHOWN that what looks like bread is actual heart tissue, or wine that actually has turned biologically into blood? what about a host the bleeds. I suppose you think these are all doctored up things to fool people into believing Christ was Salvcation for the world.[/quote]Doesn't that totally debunk the entire theological argument that Christ is present as an unbloody sacrifice? Doesn't that go completely against Jesus saying his flesh is bread, he is present as bread? If anything, it refutes what the Host is supposed to be and raises the idea that a charlatan is at work.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1061648' date='Sep 12 2006, 04:14 PM']
Doesn't that totally debunk the entire theological argument that Christ is present as an unbloody sacrifice? Doesn't that go completely against Jesus saying his flesh is bread, he is present as bread? If anything, it refutes what the Host is supposed to be and raises the idea that a charlatan is at work.
[/quote]

No, it doesn't. These phenomenas refer to Eucharistic miracles, not the sacrifice as such. The whole point of a miracle is that it deviates from the norm, and in this case is a particularly special grace and revelation.

Also, according to Eucharistic theology, the consecrated appearances both signfy and contain the reality they represent. What do they signfy? The body and blood of Christ of course. Thus it is no stretch of the imagination that the consecrated elements through a miracle could actually take on the physical appearances (i.e. blood) of which it signifies.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Budge' post='1061435' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:11 PM']
Mainline Prot churches are infested with tons of Catholicism with the first thing being sacramentalism. Ie the Reformers were able to unshackle some of the chains but didnt finish the job.

There are three types of churches--yes I knwo Im simplifying this, Liturgical--Sacramental daughters of Rome and Catholic chruch with its rites, other churches infested with liberalism--that overlaps into the liturgical churches and Bible believing churches. [/quote]

But there are also conservative and liturgical branches, like the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran church. Regardless, they also claim to stick to Sola Scriptura. In all honesty, why shouldn't I believe them?

[quote name='Budge' post='1061435' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:11 PM']I consider Lutheranism just acouple steps outside the Catholic door. I am close to someone who grew up Lutheran, and they told me straight to my face, that the Mass with the exception of longer sermons matched almost exactly to their Lutheran services.[/quote]

Well, I say the Lutheran church is about 95 steps from the Catholic Church I'd say the Lutheran liturgy is structured similarly to the Catholic Latin Rite, but there are a lot of differences when you get into the wording and practices.

[quote name='Budge' post='1061435' date='Sep 12 2006, 05:11 PM']Study the BIBLE, then youll realize how much in churches is the tradition of men and nowhere near anything that Jesus taught!
[/quote]

Where does the Bible get into details about church gatherings and liturgies? What about all the teachings of the Church Fathers instructing the early Christians to obey their bishops, that the Eucharist is truly the body of Christ, that sins are forgiven through Baptism, etc.?

[Budge]

I consider the early church fathers of Catholicism to be early deceivers.

They were already dealing with deceivers by the book of Acts.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Hey Budge, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a reply to my earlier post. Did you pick some topics you wanted to make the subject of our debate?

[Budge]

[quote]I challenge you to a debate on the Catholic faith using only the Catechism and the Bible as sources.
[/quote]

Now remember I will use Cathechism only to describe what you believe, but not as an authority of course.

I dont know what subjects, you can pick and start a thread..

I think Eucharist has been already talked about enough.

Do Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Papal Infalliblity....