To Budge

[Eutychus]

[quote]


I haven't seen you even once[u] properly use[/u] the Catechism in a debate. You've attempted to, but only taking things out of context. [/quote]

TRANSLATION: -> "[u]properly use[/u]" = agreement with the Catholic Church on an issue. Any other conclusion is IMPROPERLY used text. There is only ONE acceptable answer when using the CCC, that it is correct, and divinely inspired....

Until they issue the NEXT revision, than THAT one is the properly one, and all others preceeding that are null and void, and anyone pointing out the morphing, is a bigot, basher, and hates the Catholic Church ... by definition.



[quote]
Scripture cannot be the sole basis of a religion. Even the devil could quote scripture...[/quote]

Indeed. The parallels are just too obvious to let this pass by without a comment.

Yes, the devil CAN quote scripture, however, as some denominations do, they do NOT BELIEVE it is entirely accurate, true, and see no need to follow it.

[quote]"Bible not all true," Catholic Church

Interesting. But has the modern Catholic Church ever insisted on Biblical inerrancy?

[u] [b] Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.[/b][/u]

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture. [October 5, 2005; Independent Online][/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

The bible is not a science or history book. Never has been, never will be.
Does it contain history - absolutely!
But its not a history book.
Its a library

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

does anyone think Budge should be banned? She is not debating, only spouting nonsense.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060826' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:46 PM']
The first thing was reading the Bible and realizing the doctrines did not match.
[/quote]

That's interesting, I found that they did match more often than I may have thought they didn't.


[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1060993' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:18 PM']
does anyone think Budge should be banned? She is not debating, only spouting nonsense.
[/quote]

No, because Budge actually is opening up and letting us know where she is coming from. And I have noticed she has contributed positively in at least one thread where it had nothing to do with debating doctrine but helping a PMer in dealing with a personal crisis. So there is a side to her that is not all sarcasm.

Another certain person, on the other hand....

Edited September 12, 2006 by Norseman82

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060961' date='Sep 11 2006, 06:10 PM']
TRANSLATION: -> "[u]properly use[/u]" = agreement with the Catholic Church on an issue. Any other conclusion is IMPROPERLY used text. There is only ONE acceptable answer when using the CCC, that it is correct, and divinely inspired....

Until they issue the NEXT revision, than THAT one is the properly one, and all others preceeding that are null and void, and anyone pointing out the morphing, is a bigot, basher, and hates the Catholic Church ... by definition.
Indeed. The parallels are just too obvious to let this pass by without a comment.

Yes, the devil CAN quote scripture, however, as some denominations do, they do NOT BELIEVE it is entirely accurate, true, and see no need to follow it.
[/quote]


Which denominations are you talking about? Because the Catholic Church isn't a DEnomination....

I didn't really follow your last post...

You say that the devil CAN quote scripture, however some denominations (i'm assuming you meant the Catholic Church) don't believe it is accurate? I don't get it... You admit that the devil can quote scripture, so when he does you have to believe him, and so the Catholic Church is wrong because we don't believe misquoted scripture? I know that you did not mean even the devil is right when he quotes scripture...you confused me. Please explain ....

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1060993' date='Sep 11 2006, 08:18 PM']
does anyone think Budge should be banned? She is not debating, only spouting nonsense.
[/quote]
Nope, cause Budge is actually talking to us now.
Hurray Budge

[Resurrexi]

[quote]The bible is not a science or history book. Never has been, never will be.
Does it contain history - absolutely!
But its not a history book.
Its a library smile.gif[/quote]

Acutally, the Holy Bible is an history book. The Old Testament is the History of the People of the Religion of the Old Covenant and the New Testament is the History of the Incarnation, Redemption and the Beginning of the Holy Catholic Church.

[quote]19 Q. Where are the truths which God has revealed contained?
A. The truths which God has revealed are contained in Holy Scripture and in Tradition.

20 Q. What is Holy Scripture?
A. Holy Scripture is the collection of books written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, by the Prophets and the Hagiographers, the Apostles and the Evangelists. These books have been received by the Church as inspired.

21 Q. How is Holy Scripture divided?
A. Holy Scripture is divided into two parts, the Old and the New Testament.

22 Q. What is the Old Testament?
A. The Old Testament comprises the inspired books written before the coming of Jesus Christ.

23 Q. What is the New Testament?
A. The New Testament comprises the inspired books written after the coming of Jesus Christ.[/quote]
~Catechism of St. Pius X

Also, the Holy Bible is INFALLALBE and FREE FROM ALL ERROR

[quote]27 Q. Can there be any error in Holy Scripture?
A. There cannot be any error in Holy Scripture since indeed it is inspired by God. The Author of all of the books is God Himself. This does not prevent that in copies and translations that have been made, some errors on the part of the copyists or translators may have crept into it.[/quote]
~Catechism of St. Pius X

[quote]Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.[/quote]
~Council of Trent, Session the Fourth

[quote]But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.[/quote]
~Council of Trent, Session the Fourth

[LouisvilleFan]

Budge,

I've got a question for ya pretaining to Sola Scriptura. Ironically, it was questions I had from reading the Bible that Protestantism couldn't answer as fully as Catholicism that lead me in the opposite direction But concerning doctrine, I haven't yet found someone who can explain to me why Protestants can agree on their source of authority while disagreeing on virtually everything else. For example, I was raised in a Lutheran church and, of course, taught Sola Sciptura. I was also baptized at age 4 when my parents joined the church, along with my sister, who was an infant. I don't remember being baptized, but I've always known that I'm a baptized Christian (there's a picture of prove it ).

Now, skip ahead to a couple years ago. I was attending a Southern Baptist church and I learned that these Christians also held to Sola Scriptura, yet they did not consider me a baptized Christian. A Christian, yes, but not baptized. Now, we could get into all other points of doctrine, but Baptism is the most basic ordinance of the Church. Shouldn't we be able to agree on whether an individual is baptized or not?

Now, among the Catholic and Orthodox churches, which accept Tradition in addition to Scripture for the basis of our doctrine, there is complete agreement about all seven sacraments, doctrines pertaining to Mary, the saints, priesthood, etc. About the only real point of doctrinal disagreement relates to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.

I'm not sure how that question can be answered, except for you to say that Lutherans falsely interpret the Bible, which then brings us to the question of who has authority to correctly interpret the Bible? How does one person have more or less authority than another? What if we all claim to be listening to the "guidance of the Holy Spirit"? There must be some tangible sign God provides. And you can't rest upon judging a preacher of the Word by their fruits because there are many Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Baptists who all bear fruit in their lives, yet their teachings contradict. Wouldn't Christ provide some way for us to tell Peter or Paul from a heretic?

Edited September 12, 2006 by LouisvilleFan

[cmotherofpirl]

You missed my point. The Bible contains history but is not a history book, simply listing dates and wars. It is much much more than that: poetry, prophecy, hymnal, theology, liturgical manual, eyewitness accounts, letters etc.

But one cannot read the bible as a science book.

[Eutychus]

[center][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-3627.gif[/img] [/center]

[center][color="#006600"][size=6]
STUDY IT! [/size][/color][/center]

[quote]Redemption and the Beginning of the Holy Catholic Church. [/quote]

If anyone has a claim there, it is the Greeks, not the Romans.

And everyone knows that.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061319' date='Sep 12 2006, 01:11 PM']
[center][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-3627.gif[/img] [/center]

[center][color="#006600"][size=6]
STUDY IT! [/size][/color][/center]
If anyone has a claim there, it is the Greeks, not the Romans.

And everyone knows that.
[/quote]


You still have not responded to my (biblical) evidence that the devil can also quote scripture...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1061319' date='Sep 12 2006, 02:11 PM']
[center][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-3627.gif[/img] [/center]

[center][color="#006600"][size=6]
STUDY IT! [/size][/color][/center]
If anyone has a claim there, it is the Greeks, not the Romans.

And everyone knows that.
[/quote]
Funny, Jesus doesn't.

[Budge]

Mainline Prot churches are infested with tons of Catholicism with the first thing being sacramentalism. Ie the Reformers were able to unshackle some of the chains but didnt finish the job.

There are three types of churches--yes I knwo Im simplifying this, Liturgical--Sacramental daughters of Rome and Catholic chruch with its rites, other churches infested with liberalism--that overlaps into the liturgical churches and Bible believing churches.

I consider Lutheranism just acouple steps outside the Catholic door. I am close to someone who grew up Lutheran, and they told me straight to my face, that the Mass with the exception of longer sermons matched almost exactly to their Lutheran services.

Ive visited Episcopalian church as well, may as well been in a catholic church, same words and everything.

Study the BIBLE, then youll realize how much in churches is the tradition of men and nowhere near anything that Jesus taught! I include apostate, liberal mainline, liturgical and other Prot churches in that mix.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060820' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:30 PM']
Anyhow I realized Catholicism had been infused by error from the VERY BEGINNING which of course is something they dont agree with. It had compromised with other religions. It had brought in pagan practices. The sex scandals and other stuff was the tip of the iceberg.

What it comes down to is as a born again Christian who has put my trust in Jesus Christ alone for my salvation, I know Rome's rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies only put DISTANCE between people and God.
[/quote]

Two comments one for each paragraph

1) If the Catholic Church was started by Christ on Peter, and as you claim that the Church was in error from the beginning then how can you trust ANY of the Bible, since the men you said we in erroe were the ones who wrote the books. I mean Peter, Paul, John ect.

2) Again if all you get out of the Church is rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies then you have not listened to the Holy Spirit. Liturgies are important for our worship of God. The OT teaches so many rituals, they are not meant to distract, but help us heal and love God. Take incense is it NECESSARY? No, Does it help us show our love for God? yes. How do we know so, the OT Rituals for incense tells us burning incense is pleasing to God, he even gives a formula that one should follow, and if they use it for ANY purpose other than worshiping him they were to be cast out into the wilderness.
Rituals are good, because they allow us to use all of ourselves to worship God, senses and all.

If these things are problems that I see and after reading your post over the l;ast several then I have no problems now saying either you were not ever properly catechised (not properly catechised means hearing about Jesus' love for you, which you say you didn't), or you just had a hard heart and would not listen to anything beyond your own personal interpretation.


Side note: The following is not meant to be an attack in any way....

I feel sorry for the Children who were in Budge's RE class. If she never was properl;y catechised and shown God's love, and Jesus' redemptive suffering trhen she could not have shown it to her pupils. Please pray with me now that the kids all over the United States in bad RE classes are not turned away from the Truth that God has given the Church, and that they learn of his love for them.

Oh my Jesus, save us from the fires of hell lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy.
Amen
Mary the Mother of God, Pray for us
St. Joseph, Pray for Us
St. Micheal, Pray for us
St. Pio, Pray for us

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1060993' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:18 PM']
does anyone think Budge should be banned? She is not debating, only spouting nonsense.
[/quote]

Yes I do. But I doubt that will happen. Only "rad trads" get banned.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Akalyte