To Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, I'd like to dialogue with you. I'd like to start with a simple question: what was the pivotal moment you left the Church? Who offended you and how?

[Budge]

I was not offended.

In fact I was in a pretty cushy position in the Catholic Church, taught classes of my own to kids, RE teacher, and belonged to mothers Bible study {they let me in even though I do not have children} and most of my friends in the community were in the Catholic Church. No one offended me. I was friendly enough with the priest and even before I left had a 2 and half hour conversation with him that focused on Bible Prophecy.

What happened was I started reading the BIble circa 2000, and decided to study Catholicism all at the same time. Around 2001, is when I started realizing the scripture did not match the teachings of Rome, and especially after reading the 4 gospels, Romans, Ephesians and more. I would be saved in 2002. There is enough even in a bad NAB Catholic Bible to lead a person to salvation. The Bible got me questioning and I started investigating things.

I started reading Protestant websites and investigating things further. I realized that they were honest about many things I had questioned. I still believe if one reads Gods word enough and truly are seeking Him, and goes searching this way, they will eventually be saved. Once one is born again, ones love for God's Word only grows.

I realized something was missing in the Catholic Church about 2 years before I left. (This is probably reason I got out earlier as youth and got led astray) Everything was immensely rote. No passion for God. I had a priest that rotated the same 4 sermons, "liberal politics issue" of the day, "God loves you", "Compassion comes in all colors" and dealing with whatever holiday it was: Easter, Christmas or Mary's Assumption. I was starved for spiritual food and there was none. The people were nice, but definitely we were all being fed weak milk laced with sewage.

I would repent and come to Jesus Christ and become born again, like all true Christians I remember the very day I came to Christ and dedicated my life to Him. After that I would pray to God to show me even more truths. God has never let me down.

I was incredibly blessed by God. God himself fetched me out of the Unitarian lies a couple years before I was saved.. Maybe another time I will share with folks here about how the Holy Spirit got me out of the UU church in ONE DAY. I was not saved yet but even my husband remembers the day I got up during a UU sermon and literally walked out in the middle never to return after 13 years.

I also noticed that the Catholic Magisterium--I read alot and read tons of Catholic publications was teaching the same things that I learned as UU. When I started to realize the Pope supported the United Nations (Ive proven this on here) and preached "universal brotherhood" of man, I realized he was teaching Theosophy (which has supported world government for YEARS) and knew then something was very wrong. (Update: I was deep into Humanism and Theosophy while UU even subscribing to one of their magazines)

The more I have explored this the darker the picture. As a UU I even had a minister who was once a signer of the HUmanist Manfesto. I know the occult and the New Age and sad to say, saw PLENTY OF ITS ASPECTS from the fellow Catholics in my church sharing their holistic medicines--the practice of Taize prayer-meditation to what was going on in the international scene in the Catholic church. I still feel I left UUism TWICE. Most Catholics and Ive noticed this on the boards do not know about these things but Ive noticed having conversed with Catholics on the boards for years, most of the apologists and gunghos, make endless excuses for them. I was in the middle of it all for 13 years, I know what I am talking about when I say what I saw happen. Its not a matter of interpertation, I know the key words, I know the goals of the Humanists and New Agers because I was ONE of them.. Sad to say the RCCs EXACTLY MATCH.

I would have been a Trad if I held Catholic doctrine ALONE on all of this and easily could have been fooled into sticking by the one true church lies and ending up a Trad if I hadnt been born again. In fact this happened to acouple acquaintances at that church. One thankfully has left, with my paryers helping. By then the whole House of Cards fell for me. One contradiction in Trad-dom is if you believe in authority of Magisterium as being God-given it doesnt allow for such huge breaches to Christianity. Anyhow I realized Catholicism had been infused by error from the VERY BEGINNING which of course is something they dont agree with. It had compromised with other religions. It had brought in pagan practices. The sex scandals and other stuff was the tip of the iceberg.

What it comes down to is as a born again Christian who has put my trust in Jesus Christ alone for my salvation, I know Rome's rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies only put DISTANCE between people and God.

The Catholic church is leading millions to a Christless eterntiy and it is fulfilling its endtimes prophecy as the counterfeit church [with harlot Prots and false religions] of the antichrist.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060820' date='Sep 11 2006, 04:30 PM']
I was not offended.

In fact I was in a pretty cushy position in the Catholic Church, taught classes of my own to kids, RE teacher, and belonged to mothers Bible study {they let me in even though I do not have children} and most of my friends in the community were in the Catholic Church. No one offended me. I was friendly enough with the priest and even before I left had a 2 and half hour conversation with him that focused on Bible Prophecy.

What happened was I started reading the BIble circa 2000, and decided to study Catholicism all at the same time. Around 2001, is when I started realizing the scripture did not match the teachings of Rome, and especially after reading the 4 gospels, Romans, Ephesians and more. I would be saved in 2002. There is enough even in a bad NAB Catholic Bible to lead a person to salvation.

I started to pray to God to show me the truth as well, this was prior to being saved, but God knew I was to be written in the book of life.

Here is an essay I wrote that really explains HOW AND WHY I LEFT.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26803&hl="]THE THEOSOPHY&UNIVERSALISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH...[/url]

If I was offended by anything, it wasnt the people, it was Rome's false teachings and the fact that I couldnt be fooled about what the interfaithism was really about having left the UU church which is a micro-cosm of the one world church of the NWO--you cant fool an ex-universalist with universalism under a Christian veneer.
[/quote]

So the main thing that led you away was that you perceived that the Catholic Church had a universalist bent to it?

[Budge]

That was the secondary thing.

The first thing was reading the Bible and realizing the doctrines did not match.

Read the above again, I added more about the universalism and rounded out what I said so youll understand.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060826' date='Sep 11 2006, 04:46 PM']
That was the secondary thing.

The first thing was reading the Bible and realizing the doctrines did not match.

Read the above again, I added more about the universalism and rounded out what I said so youll understand.
[/quote]
I see. The reason I ask is that the journey out of the Church to some other faith community is generally always either when someone is upset at a person (a pastor, a teacher, another person at the parish, etc.) or when they misunderstand some Church teaching and leave for corresponding intellectual reasons.

I assumed that it must have been something personal, since you are so adamantly against even allowing us to try to clarify for you what the Church teaches. Usually the kind of passion that keeps a person so insistent on not listening to others (let alone taking their word for it when they say that you misunderstand their faith) comes from the first of those two reasons I listed above. Of course, there is also the reason that there may have been personal things you wanted the faith to be, but it wasn't, and so you tried to read into the Scriptures and force an interpretation never meant. This often happens when a person isolates a few verses rather than seeing the Scriptures as a whole contextual work and the Word of God.

[Budge]

You all keep telling me I dont know what the church teaches when I quote endlessly from the CCC, and often have to instruct the folks here what your church teaches.

In fact I think that line is empty..it really doesnt mean anything. I have already told you I have explored the doctrines of Catholicism and they do not match with scripture. Because unlike a Catholic I do not acccept scripture and tradition and Magisterium as all equal authorities, I do reject Catholic doctrine based upon the teachings of Gods Word. Telling people YOU DONT UNDERSTAND CATHOLICISM as a false retort over and over really doesnt MEAN anything. I dare say that the apologists here have been trained to say that over and over to anyone who simply does not accept the doctrines of Catholicism no matter how studied they are.

Why is it impossible for you to accept that someone would leave because they do not believe the doctrines, teachings? and for that matter condemn most of the practices in addition?

Do I misunderstand Mormonism because I reject it?

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060841' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:04 PM']
You all keep telling me I dont know what the church teaches when I quote endlessly from the CCC, and often have to instruct the folks here what your church teaches.
[/quote]

I haven't seen you even once properly use the Catechism in a debate. You've attempted to, but only taking things out of context.

Fair enough. I'm a bit busy, but I have a little time in my schedule every now and then. I challenge you to a debate on the Catholic faith using only the Catechism and the Bible as sources.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060841' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:04 PM']
You all keep telling me I dont know what the church teaches when I quote endlessly from the CCC, and often have to instruct the folks here what your church teaches.

In fact I think that line is empty..it really doesnt mean anything. I have already told you I have explored the doctrines of Catholicism and they do not match with scripture. Because unlike a Catholic I do not acccept scripture and tradition and Magisterium as all equal authorities, I do reject Catholic doctrine based upon the teachings of Gods Word. Telling people YOU DONT UNDERSTAND CATHOLICISM as a false retort over and over really doesnt MEAN anything. I dare say that the apologists here have been trained to say that over and over to anyone who simply does not accept the doctrines of Catholicism no matter how studied they are.

Why is it impossible for you to accept that someone would leave because they do not believe the doctrines, teachings? and for that matter condemn most of the practices in addition?

Do I misunderstand Mormonism because I reject it?
[/quote]
But you keep forgetting the scriptures you keep quoting are the texts chosen by the Church herself.
How can you use a book chosen by the Catholic church for anyting?
Don't your fingers burn when you touch it???

[Budge]

Sure pick a subject and Ill debate you.

Just start a thread...
[quote]

But you keep forgetting the scriptures you keep quoting are the texts chosen by the Church herself.
How can you use a book chosen by the Catholic church for anyting?
Don't your fingers burn when you touch it???[/quote]

All Rome did was make the canon OFFICIAL, the books were long in use before hand. The canon was already known by Christians.

Since my Bible is not melting my hands, I must be ok;)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060873' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:30 PM']
Sure pick a subject and Ill debate you.
[/quote]
Well, let's discuss a topic first. I'm particularly fond of a number of things. Any ideas on what you would like?

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060873' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:30 PM']
Sure pick a subject and Ill debate you.

Just start a thread...
All Rome did was make the canon OFFICIAL, the books were long in use before hand. The canon was already known by Christians.

Since my Bible is not melting my hands, I must be ok;)
[/quote]

This really has nothing to do with anything, but Proof please?

Sorry for the off-topic-ness

Edited September 11, 2006 by CatholicCid

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060841' date='Sep 11 2006, 04:04 PM']
You all keep telling me I dont know what the church teaches when I quote endlessly from the CCC, and often have to instruct the folks here what your church teaches.

In fact I think that line is empty..it really doesnt mean anything. I have already told you I have explored the doctrines of Catholicism and they do not match with scripture. Because unlike a Catholic I do not acccept scripture and tradition and Magisterium as all equal authorities, I do reject Catholic doctrine based upon the teachings of Gods Word. Telling people YOU DONT UNDERSTAND CATHOLICISM as a false retort over and over really doesnt MEAN anything. I dare say that the apologists here have been trained to say that over and over to anyone who simply does not accept the doctrines of Catholicism no matter how studied they are.

Why is it impossible for you to accept that someone would leave because they do not believe the doctrines, teachings? and for that matter condemn most of the practices in addition?

Do I misunderstand Mormonism because I reject it?
[/quote]


Scripture cannot be the sole basis of a religion. Even the devil could quote scripture...

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[b]"

7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

Matthew 4:5-7 (NIV)

Personal interpretation can warp scripture to make it mean what you want it to mean. Just because the Bible says one thing doesn't mean that it means what you said it does. If you take every single verse of the Bible out of context and say that it is true, then the devil was right in the fourth chapter of Matthew, and Jesus should have thrown himself off of the temple. This is the only logical conclusion. That is why as Catholics we have three sources of God's revelation. Tradition, Scripture, and Magesterium. Sola Scriptura doesn't make sense.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060873' date='Sep 11 2006, 04:30 PM']
Sure pick a subject and Ill debate you.

Just start a thread...
All Rome did was make the canon OFFICIAL, the books were long in use before hand. The canon was already known by Christians.

Since my Bible is not melting my hands, I must be ok;)
[/quote]


One thing to ponder Budge....as you admit above, the Church did indeed make the canon official. Yes, one of the reasons for making a particular writing part of the canon was its use in the liturgy and acceptance by the church as a whole.

That said....how can you support the reduced canon of the Protestants? For nearly 1500 years, the books we have in the 'Catholic' Bible now were accepted as canonical. The Church confirmed this when the offical canon was affirmed. It was only after Luther's break in the 1540's that the 7 were dropped from the Protestant OT. Why was the universally accepted canon for almost 1500 years not any good suddenly? How do you accept a pseudo-canon that is only 500 years old?

Further on the theme..Luther wanted to toss out James and Revelation as well as 2 and 3 John. Do you accept these 4 books? If so, why?

Very curious to hear the answer to these.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[Called2theCross]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1060884' date='Sep 11 2006, 04:41 PM']
Scripture cannot be the sole basis of a religion. Even the devil could quote scripture...

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[b]"

7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

Matthew 4:5-7 (NIV)

Personal interpretation can warp scripture to make it mean what you want it to mean. Just because the Bible says one thing doesn't mean that it means what you said it does. If you take every single verse of the Bible out of context and say that it is true, then the devil was right in the fourth chapter of Matthew, and Jesus should have thrown himself off of the temple. This is the only logical conclusion. That is why as Catholics we have three sources of God's revelation. Tradition, Scripture, and Magesterium. Sola Scriptura doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

Amen!!

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060820' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:30 PM']
I was not offended.

In fact I was in a pretty cushy position in the Catholic Church, taught classes of my own to kids, RE teacher, and belonged to mothers Bible study {they let me in even though I do not have children} and most of my friends in the community were in the Catholic Church. No one offended me. I was friendly enough with the priest and even before I left had a 2 and half hour conversation with him that focused on Bible Prophecy.

What happened was I started reading the BIble circa 2000, and decided to study Catholicism all at the same time. Around 2001, is when I started realizing the scripture did not match the teachings of Rome, and especially after reading the 4 gospels, Romans, Ephesians and more. I would be saved in 2002. There is enough even in a bad NAB Catholic Bible to lead a person to salvation. The Bible got me questioning and I started investigating things.

I started reading Protestant websites and investigating things further. I realized that they were honest about many things I had questioned. I still believe if one reads Gods word enough and truly are seeking Him, and goes searching this way, they will eventually be saved. Once one is born again, ones love for God's Word only grows.

I realized something was missing in the Catholic Church about 2 years before I left. (This is probably reason I got out earlier as youth and got led astray) Everything was immensely rote. No passion for God. I had a priest that rotated the same 4 sermons, "liberal politics issue" of the day, "God loves you", "Compassion comes in all colors" and dealing with whatever holiday it was: Easter, Christmas or Mary's Assumption. I was starved for spiritual food and there was none. The people were nice, but definitely we were all being fed weak milk laced with sewage.

I would repent and come to Jesus Christ and become born again, like all true Christians I remember the very day I came to Christ and dedicated my life to Him. After that I would pray to God to show me even more truths. God has never let me down.

I was incredibly blessed by God. God himself fetched me out of the Unitarian lies a couple years before I was saved.. Maybe another time I will share with folks here about how the Holy Spirit got me out of the UU church in ONE DAY. I was not saved yet but even my husband remembers the day I got up during a UU sermon and literally walked out in the middle never to return after 13 years.

I also noticed that the Catholic Magisterium--I read alot and read tons of Catholic publications was teaching the same things that I learned as UU. When I started to realize the Pope supported the United Nations (Ive proven this on here) and preached "universal brotherhood" of man, I realized he was teaching Theosophy (which has supported world government for YEARS) and knew then something was very wrong. (Update: I was deep into Humanism and Theosophy while UU even subscribing to one of their magazines)

The more I have explored this the darker the picture. As a UU I even had a minister who was once a signer of the HUmanist Manfesto. I know the occult and the New Age and sad to say, saw PLENTY OF ITS ASPECTS from the fellow Catholics in my church sharing their holistic medicines--the practice of Taize prayer-meditation to what was going on in the international scene in the Catholic church. I still feel I left UUism TWICE. Most Catholics and Ive noticed this on the boards do not know about these things but Ive noticed having conversed with Catholics on the boards for years, most of the apologists and gunghos, make endless excuses for them. I was in the middle of it all for 13 years, I know what I am talking about when I say what I saw happen. Its not a matter of interpertation, I know the key words, I know the goals of the Humanists and New Agers because I was ONE of them.. Sad to say the RCCs EXACTLY MATCH.

I would have been a Trad if I held Catholic doctrine ALONE on all of this and easily could have been fooled into sticking by the one true church lies and ending up a Trad if I hadnt been born again. In fact this happened to acouple acquaintances at that church. One thankfully has left, with my paryers helping. By then the whole House of Cards fell for me. One contradiction in Trad-dom is if you believe in authority of Magisterium as being God-given it doesnt allow for such huge breaches to Christianity. Anyhow I realized Catholicism had been infused by error from the VERY BEGINNING which of course is something they dont agree with. It had compromised with other religions. It had brought in pagan practices. The sex scandals and other stuff was the tip of the iceberg.

What it comes down to is as a born again Christian who has put my trust in Jesus Christ alone for my salvation, I know Rome's rituals, rites, middlemen and ceremonies only put DISTANCE between people and God.

The Catholic church is leading millions to a Christless eterntiy and it is fulfilling its endtimes prophecy as the counterfeit church [with harlot Prots and false religions] of the antichrist.
[/quote]

Very interesting story. Especially the part about the Unitarian Church, my mom was a part of the Unitarian Church for a number of years (she took me there in my earlier days) and she now looks back and sees so much of what was taught at that Unitarian Church in the teachings of the Novus Ordo catholic church. Except unlike you, she and I DID go trad.