Pope Praying To A Statue?

[OLAM Dad]

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/materdei/insidescr-2.jpg[/img]


Even our statues worship statues.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[KnightofChrist]

Dont understand Mary with the moon under her feet, and how the statue tells a story, and the pope honors that story?

READ THE HOLY BIBLE! It's that easy...


[quote]And a great sign appeared in heaven: [b]A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,[/b] and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

[color="#FF0000"]1 "A woman"... The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.[/color]

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days. 7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night. [/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1060796' date='Sep 11 2006, 03:45 PM']
Well, since we're pointing out similarities in religious symbols and thereby "proving" that Catholic art is pagan, let's remember that religions before Chrisitanity had their gods die and be reborn as well.

I'm sure this proves that Jesus is just an adaptation of those myths.[/quote]Muslims love to attack Christianity by using parallels (albeit stretched) with Hinduism, etc. Their favorite attacks are against the Incarnation and the Trinity. And in both cases, they try to make connections with Hinduism or some pre-Christian religion.

For example, some Muslim apologists actually stole their attacks on Christianity from an atheist website and ended up making the claim that the Virgin Birth or Our Lord was plagiarized from the Hindu story of Krishna. The irony is that the Quran teaches that the virgin birth actually happened. LOL

[XIX]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060768' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:42 PM']
Now we don't say you WORSHIP THE PLASTER itself.

We know you don't.

You DO, however, make them, [b]serve them[/b], and [b]venerate[/b], bow before, [b]give gifts to,[/b] [b]bring money to,[/b] dress up, fly to visit, [b]and do massive work [/b] to maintain, transport, show, make, use, and protect.

Every last one of which, is equally condemned.
[/quote]
Strawmen in bold. We do those for the saints themselves, not the statues. Just FYI.

Phatmass has already used to Bible to prove that the others are not condemned.

[quote name='Budge' post='1060687' date='Sep 11 2006, 11:16 AM']
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Mariensaeule.jpg/600px-Mariensaeule.jpg[/img]
Why does Jesus always come as an afterthought in these monologues?

Things get really weird when the Pope puts YOU and descripters of statue in same sentence. We gave you a crown and scepter...No they gave a hunk of golden metal a crown and scepter.
[/quote]
I should go leave flowers by my Godmother's grave. And pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet for her soul.

[Eutychus]

[quote] As for statues that represent the One God (e.g. Our Lord crucified, the Holy Spirit as a dove, etc), we've got archaeological proof that this has been around since the early Christians in the catacombs of Rome. Probably the most common statue, the Crucifix, is entirely consistent with the words of St. Paul (link):[/quote]

Oh dear historical and biblical illiterate...

The "cross" { let alone a crucifx } was NEVER seen in Christian use for the first hundred years. It was considered horribly improper, recalling and putting to SHAME AGAIN, our Lord, who had to die the way He did, but we like the bible authors, should note what was done, but not make it into a central focus VISUALLY in our churches.

[quote]

[color="#990000"][b]THE CRUCIFIX

History

The image of the crucified Jesus first appears, according to archaeological evidence, in Rome in the 5th century; before this date, Jesus was commonly represented in the form of a lamb. Early Christians avoided pictorial use even of the simple cross, let alone the rendering of Jesus’ crucifixion, due to the ignominy associated with this form of death.[/b] [/color]The Christian communities of the ancient world, while officially affirming the dual nature of Jesus as both human and divine, concentrated more on his divine attributes than on his earthly career. Thus, the crucifix, as the preeminent symbol of Jesus’ suffering and death, would not enjoy widespread popularity and ritual use until the medieval period. [/quote]

[url="http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/symbols/crucifix.html"]MORE HERE[/url]

What you DON'T KNOW about history would fill volumes....sigh.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Eutychus

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:15 PM']
Oh dear historical and biblical illiterate...[/quote]

When you say such things are you standing in a hall of mirrors?

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:15 PM']
The "cross" { let alone a crucifx } was NEVER seen in Christian use for the first hundred years. It was considered horribly improper, recalling and putting to SHAME AGAIN, our Lord, who had to die the way He did, but we like the bible authors, should note what was done, but not make it into a central focus VISUALLY in our churches.
[url="http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/symbols/crucifix.html"]MORE HERE[/url]

What you DON'T KNOW about history would fill volumes....sigh.
[/quote]

You should learn to read The Bible before you fall over your own words.

Galatians 3:1 [color="#FF0000"]"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?"[/color] Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their "eyes", as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn't it?

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm[/url]

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060703' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:46 PM']
I believe it is worth exposing because God preaches against idolatry.

Lets anaylze the situation, there is the Pope doing this speech in front of thousands of Germans. [/quote]

Yes lets.you need to rethink your title. No where, ANYWHERE did you show nort quote pope benidict XVI praying TO a Statue, even your quote says he is Praying AT a Statue.

[quote]
Is anyone's attention on Jesus Christ?

Is anyone's attention on the gospel?
[/quote]

If you were talking about the President would you still be thinkinking about the United States? At least for me and the cool Brain God gave me can handle it. The same way that when I think of Mary I think of Jesus, as for the Gosp[el you didn't show anything contrary to the Gospel being said.

[quote]
Is anyone's attention on God? {God is only mentoned as being a little helpless baby}
[/quote]

The attentionis always on God. as atholics we can recognize God working THROUGH other people and things, remeber when the disciples needed to pay their taxes God used a fish to help Peter get the money. The same way that we need to learn So God gives us the Church, Mary, and the Saints to HELP toteach us. Thesse things are given to us by the power of the Holy Spirit, so the verse you like to through out about the Holy Spirit tteaching us and leading us is not violated.

[quote]
It is all focused on the fancy golden statue and Mary.
[/quote]
Nooo, the fancy golden statue is focused on Mary and JESUS both of whom are wonderful.
What is the problem with showing Jesus as a Baby? Here is a news flash if you've missed the Christmas story, JESUS WAS A BABY. He was helpless and needed the help of Mary and Joseph to be raised healthy and strong.

[quote]
The Mary of the Bible would be horrified. I do see Mary as an example of a Christian believer having done Gods Will, but she was HUMBLE. She would not accept golden statues of her like a pseudo-Nebachanezzar.
[/quote]

I see you loose your barage of Biblical quotes when you decide to make things up about Mary, we at least still us ours when we make infallible statements about her.

[quote]
I go daily to Zenit and read the Pope's weekly speeches, 9 out of 10 are focused on Mary. Jesus is rarely ever mentioned and then just as an afterthought.

The Pope's real focus is bringing everyone to the queen of heaven, not a creature of heaven whatsoever.

I finished reading the book of Acts the other day again, and NOT once is MARY PRAYED to or honored in this way by the early church.
[/quote]

Good for you, hopefully God will soften your heart enough to get Truth from the Pope's messages. Mary is the Queen of Heaven if we are shown her, she shows us to her Son. She does nbot bypass her son, nor create a salvation expressway. Did you notice anything else from the book of Acts? Like Apostolic Succession begging? If not maybe you aren't reading AND praying that God reveal his truth to you. and again I said Maybe, not aren't I don't claim to know the status of your soul.

[Socrates]

Well, first of all, the Pope is not addressing a statue, but the Blessed Virgin Mary, whom the stature represents. Anyone with first-grade catechism can see that.

Secondly, before you condemn giving honor and glory to Mary as wrong and "unbiblical," you might want to read this passage from Luke's Gospel.

[quote]To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: [b]Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.[/b][/quote](Luke 1:27-28).

Even the angels give praise to Mary! (And from this Scripture comes the Catholic "Hail Mary" prayer.)

But I suppose according to your "interpretation," the angel Gabriel is really a demon from hell, bent on leading us all into the evil of Romish Idolatry!

Edited September 12, 2006 by Socrates

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:15 PM']Oh dear historical and biblical illiterate...[/quote]Wow, thanks for avoiding the [i]ad hominems[/i].

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:15 PM']It was considered horribly improper, recalling and putting to SHAME AGAIN, our Lord, who had to die the way He did, but we like the bible authors,[/quote]I would ask that you read the actual quotes that we have provided you from the Holy Bible. If it were truly "considered horribly improper" to merely recall the Crucifixion, then why does St. Paul write as he does in his letter to the Corinthians? If you consider preaching Christ crucified "horribly improper," then I guess I'll follow St. Paul in his "horrible improperness." LOL

I am not ashamed that Our Lord made an Eternal Sacrifice to purchase for me eternal life. I am humbled.
[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060964' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:15 PM']What you DON'T KNOW about history would fill volumes....sigh.[/quote]Thank you for assuming the worst--very charitable of you. I'm afraid that I didn't word my statement correctly. I did not mean to infer that the Crucifix was a common symbol in Christian worship in the catacombs of Rome. My point was that Christian art (e.g. statues, paintings) has been used since the very beginning of Christianity. The existence of this art and use within the context of worship is not contrary to the Will of God.

Setting aside the symbol of the Crucifix, I'm glad that you mentioned Our Lord represented as a lamb in art. Maybe you would accept that some paintings and statues aren't contrary to the commandment forbidding idolatry. Or maybe I shouldn't read too much into your statement. Heck, some Christians think that Mel Gibson's "The Passion" movie was idolatrous, because it visually depicted Our Lord on the big screen. Do you believe that the portrayal of Our Lord in motion pictures is idolatrous?

Edited September 12, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060766' date='Sep 11 2006, 01:40 PM']
So wow, NOVUS ORDO Catholics no longer consider BUDDHISTS AND HINDUS idolators?

Oh yeah I have to forget how you all are merging together.

Buddhist Catholic nun pow-wow, they worshipped together even.
[/quote]
Buddhists and Hindus are attempting to find a truth. I wonder how you would have felt about Jesus eating with sinners, the tax collectors and prostitutes. In your opinion, how should we relate with other faiths?

In regards to venerating the pope, you realize the apostles were venerated by their followers.

[quote]12 The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.
Acts 5:12-13 (NIV)
[/quote]
"Highly regarded" is that translation's interpretation. Stronger words used in others. The point is the same. The apostle's were not treated the same as average Joes. This is one example. There are others, even better. I would find if not sleepy.

[Eutychus]

[quote]I would ask that you read the actual quotes that we have provided you from the Holy Bible. If it were truly "considered horribly improper" to merely recall the Crucifixion, then why does St. Paul write as he does in his letter to the Corinthians? [u]If you consider preaching Christ crucified "horribly improper," then I guess I'll follow St. Paul in his "horrible improperness."[/u] LOL [/quote]

My dear man, I honestly feel sorry for you. If one cannot discern the difference between a SERMON and a PLASTER IDOL, there is literally nothing one can do for you to make things clearer.

As I stated earlier in this thread, if you WANT to be using plaster idols go ahead. And on judgement day, you can explain things to Paul, how he REALLY meant the crucifix idol, when he penned those words, and why wasn't he clearer about things.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

For something to be an idol... don't you have to adore it over God?

[Eutychus]

[quote]For something to be an idol... don't you have to adore it over God? [/quote]

Oh dear biblical illiterate.... { I'm having a good time with that phrase, humor me...} have you never read the story about the Golden Calf at Mt. Horeb { Sinai} ?

Were they WORSHIPPING the actual calf created, OR... were they USING it to represent?

Remember, this event happened within five months of them being delivered via the ten plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, and daily, they had the Pillar of fire or smoke before them, or behind them. So they KNEW who it was who delivered them, it wasn't a calf, or an egyptian god....shall we look at the proof of same?

[quote]Exodus 32:4 (KJV) And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5 And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, [b]To morrow [is] a feast [u]to the LORD.[[/u]/b][/quote]

Note, it was created to invoke a REPRESENTATION TO the LORD, they KNEW who God was, they WANTED to honor Him, they used their own imaginations to create an image, that they THOUGHT wouild be acceptable, and pleasing to the Lord...

Starting to make people uncomfortable yet? If not, it should.