Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1062185' date='Sep 13 2006, 09:23 PM'] That is one Catholic belief, that makes me scared for all of you. You cant assume that you entered into a relationship with Christ just because you had some water splashed on you as a baby. I know it didnt make me born again. I wouldnt know Jesus Christ until my 30s. As a baby if that is when you were baptized--majority of Catholics baptized at infancy...it is impossible that you became born again. [/quote] Does the Bible say that it's impossible to be born again as a baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 (edited) Out of wonder, what happens to someone who turns away from your church Ms. (or Mrs.) Budge? If they were born again, accept a relationship with Christ, but later turned away... Were they really born again? What happens if they wish to return? What exactly would you consider a relationship with Christ as well? Edited September 14, 2006 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 14, 2006 Author Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote]it's not impossible, because it was the work of grace that made me born again, not something of myself.[/quote] That is not being born again...you were a little baby without the ability to even understand GRACE. Where is the conviction in that or becoming a new creature in Christ and repenting of your sins? Being saved in Jesus Christ is knowing you are His, and it is basically coming out of your own dark pit and thinking you can work your way to heaven and putting all your trust in Him and loving God and following His Commandments not because you are just afraid of going to hell but out of gratitude and feeling His Love, and realizing the FREE gift of salvation. It is not only knowing ABOUT Jesus {This described me during my years in the UU} but knowing Him personally, feeling His Hand on your life day by day, knowing He is always there, trusting in Gods power and promises, and loving Gods Word. When one becomes a Christian ones life does change in every facet. [size=4]Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration."[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1062185' date='Sep 13 2006, 09:23 PM'] That is one Catholic belief, that makes me scared for all of you. You cant assume that you entered into a relationship with Christ just because you had some water splashed on you as a baby. I know it didnt make me born again. I wouldnt know Jesus Christ until my 30s. As a baby if that is when you were baptized--majority of Catholics baptized at infancy...it is impossible that you became born again. [/quote] Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I didn't think that we had the same understanding. So, you had what I would call a convertion in your 30s. I obviously disagree with you as to infant baptism. I don't assume that one has entered into a relationship with Christ from the time of Baptism. I trust that the Lord has added another to His body. After all, He has the ability to claim a soul as His and to change that soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 14, 2006 Author Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote] I obviously disagree with you as to infant baptism. I don't assume that one has entered into a relationship with Christ from the time of Baptism. I trust that the Lord has added another to His body. After all, He has the ability to claim a soul as His and to change that soul. [/quote] So if some of the little babies dont get saved at the baptism font doesnt that mean the baptism ceremony has NOTHING to do with that babies salvation? I wasnt some evil baby, that renounced Christ at 9 days old while my priest splashed me. Here you are kind of claiming some Calvinism that God goes and claims His elect :ie some of the babies get saved at the baptismal font, and some dont... I wont argue with you in that I believe that God knows whose going to be written in the book of Life...{wont be via Catholic baptism and ritual though} Even Ive asked while my undeserving self got taken out of the UU in one day..leaving the rest of the atheists, pagans, and universalists on the path to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Does one have to understand grace in order to receive it? I'm quite sure I don't understand even now all the implications of divine grace. For that matter, what about mentally handicapped people? Are they incapable of receiving grace and being born again simply because they cannot understand grace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1062315' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:20 AM'] So if some of the little babies dont get saved at the baptism font doesnt that mean the baptism ceremony has NOTHING to do with that babies salvation? I wasnt some evil baby, that renounced Christ at 9 days old while my priest splashed me. Here you are kind of claiming some Calvinism that God goes and claims His elect :ie some of the babies get saved at the baptismal font, and some dont... I wont argue with you in that I believe that God knows whose going to be written in the book of Life...{wont be via Catholic baptism and ritual though} Even Ive asked while my undeserving self got taken out of the UU in one day..leaving the rest of the atheists, pagans, and universalists on the path to hell. [/quote] Ultimately, my salvation is not guaranteed my baptism or by anything I do. Ultimately, my salvation comes down to the will of God. In the meantime, I grow closer to Him in following His commandments and accepting the graces given me. As you know from your past in the Catholic Church, baptism does not guarantee salvation. I don't want to Hijack the thread by turning it into a discussion of Baptism and once saved always saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1062190' date='Sep 13 2006, 07:28 PM'] Out of wonder, what happens to someone who turns away from your church Ms. (or Mrs.) Budge? If they were born again, accept a relationship with Christ, but later turned away... Were they really born again? What happens if they wish to return? What exactly would you consider a relationship with Christ as well? [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1062334' date='Sep 13 2006, 11:32 PM'] For that matter, what about mentally handicapped people? Are they incapable of receiving grace and being born again simply because they cannot understand grace? [/quote] This is the biggest hole in Protestant thinking about baptism. They view baptism as a point in time when you decide to accept Jesus in your life. What happens when you are incapable of making that decision because of physical impairment? Do they never enter heaven? (Take note Budge.) The Catholic interpretation of baptism is spot on. Duh. Baptism is a sacrament that welcomes someone as a new member of Jesus' family, His Church. Just as you were born into a physical family and took a name, baptism brings birth to you into a spiritual/divine family. You also take a name just like in physical birth, the name of a saint. Physical birth did not ask for consent, did not ask what your IQ is or your physical condition, and any other survey. I was made a member of my earthly family by my parents' will. In baptism of infants and children, you are claimed as a member of Jesus' holy family by your parents (or guardians). With your physical birth and spiritual birth completed, you are made whole. It doesn't mean you'll be sinless forever. Confession restores the wholeness sin corrupts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1062315' date='Sep 13 2006, 10:20 PM'] So if some of the little babies dont get saved at the baptism font doesnt that mean the baptism ceremony has NOTHING to do with that babies salvation? I wasnt some evil baby, that renounced Christ at 9 days old while my priest splashed me. Here you are kind of claiming some Calvinism that God goes and claims His elect :ie some of the babies get saved at the baptismal font, and some dont... I wont argue with you in that I believe that God knows whose going to be written in the book of Life...{wont be via Catholic baptism and ritual though} Even Ive asked while my undeserving self got taken out of the UU in one day..leaving the rest of the atheists, pagans, and universalists on the path to hell. [/quote] Budge, This is a great topic to discuss with the Caths. I'll start a topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 14, 2006 Author Share Posted September 14, 2006 Ok thanks:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 it sounds to me like you have earned grace and faith by your ability to understand them at the age of reason... but us Catholics inexplicably understand that grace and faith are completely free gifts which God can even give to babes who have not reached the age of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 14, 2006 Author Share Posted September 14, 2006 Considering the world is full of atheist, agnostic, pagan and God-rejecting little sprinkled babies....Catholic infant baptism just means a baby got wet. I think even Madilyn O'Hare got baptized in a Presby church, they have too many left over Catholic errors. It didnt "take" either. Since I grew up to be a Christ rejecter for many many years... {my parents did take me to church and were good parents who prayed etc} doesnt this mean that your baptism doesnt work for all babies? Doesnt that make the belief that your sacraments automatically imparts grace FALSE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 No, it means that God doesn't force Himself on anyone and that people can (and do) reject grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1062650' date='Sep 14 2006, 02:35 PM'] No, it means that God doesn't force Himself on anyone and that people can (and do) reject grace. [/quote] Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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