You'ze Wasn't "properly" Catechized !

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1060794' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:43 PM']
Knowing Jesus is life changing. Applying the sacraments he gave to us is life changing. And yes our trust is in Jesus Christ.

John 3:16? I'm at a loss.. Anyone familiar with this passage? It seems pretty obscure to me. Anyone?
Bueller?
[/quote]
There was a dude in a rainbow wig holding up a sign that said "Jn 3:16" but... um... yeah... that was kinda weird.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060828' date='Sep 11 2006, 04:51 PM']
They dont have to pass out tracts, preach the WORD, if the person cant read.

Tracts work well for people you dont know personally where there is no opportunity to sit down and have some chats.

You are right if someone just hands people tracts and puts no more effort towards preaching the Word, that isnt good either.
[/quote]

I'm glad we agree. Now, having agreed on that point, I will agree with you that Catholics should preach the Gospel more often. I think it's wonderful that the numbers of religious who are being trained to do just that is rising.

[quote]The Catholic Church is a middleman and 1. Never teaches that a person must be born again, and with its continual sacrifice of Jesus CHrist on its altars {yes I know you teach it is a representing the one time sacrifice} and false doctrines, puts up endless roadblocks to people who need to trust in Christ alone for salvation and realize His work on the cross was totally sufficient. [/quote]

1. The Catholic Church (I do not say "Roman" because the Church is not just Roman, it has many other rites to it, as well) is not the middleman. In the Old Testament, God set up middlemen because the people would not listen to Him directly. In fact, we see that the more disobedient they are, the more complicated the string of middlemen. The Catholic Church, rather, is the Mystical Body of Christ. Therefore, mystically, the Catholic Church is so bound to Christ that it is not as if you go to the Catholic Church, get evaluated, and then the Church hands over your case to Jesus. By going to the Catholic Church, you go to Jesus. I would ask you to read Lumen Gentium. You can find it in a Google search.

2. The Church does teach that a man must be born again. We simply believe that it happens at Baptism. Please be precise. If you mean to say that it doesn't happen at Baptism, then that's a different debate, but we both agree that a man must be born again.

3. As you well know, the Church does not continually offer Christ. We do not teach it and you do not believe it's really Christ, so both of us agree that the Church doesn't do it. Why keep bringing it up?

4. Amen. The work of Christ is totally sufficient for salvation. Thank you. The only thing the Church teaches is that we need to accept it. Certainly you agree with that.

[quote]The born again Christian has the Holy Spirit, there is no need to visit a wafer in a building to go "see" God. That is not faith but desiring a god that can be seen in the "flesh".[/quote]

First, Jesus can hardly be seen in the flesh in the Eucharist. He appears to be a host. You don't see any flesh, even though you're looking at His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Second, our longing to see God in the flesh in no way detracts from our faith. What do you think Jesus Christ became man for in the first place? God has put into everyone a desire to see Him in the flesh, "to seek the face of the God of Jacob." Does it really seem so odd to you that we want to do that?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060645' date='Sep 11 2006, 10:08 AM']
He broke it down into those things to show you that the Christian life is much involved then the Catholic life.

Catholics never pass out tracts with rare exceptions, never preach the gospel and unless they are a religious or part of an organization never run ministries.

In my Catholic family, God and church were only for Sat. night, Sunday and mentioned at the occasional sit down meal. They are very nice people, but I know they find my desire to study God's Word to be unusual, spending that "many hours on religious pursuits".

When one becomes a Christian, ones entire life changes, and if one is truly dedicated to Jesus Christ, He is on your mind-every waking hour. That includes having your money, time and effort, be dedicated to him first, {good stewart and more} That includes that every time you meet someone or every friend you got, you are wondering about their relationship with Jesus Christ and desiring that they come to know Him.

While I admit there are lukewarm baptists and others at Christian churches, at the Catholic churchs Ive been in, most came in, did their 45 minutes left and God was never mentioned for the rest of the week. Even to get enough members for the womens Bible study {the only study}--which oddly they opened only to mothers at my last church--the group went ecumenical open to the mainline Christian churches in the area, and even later died out. That was in a church of a 1000 people. There were no other Bible Studies, no ministries, no dinners save a once a year picnic, and no fellowship at that church whatsoever. Even the charities were run by social workers and employees rather then volunteers and they demanded tax returns of everyone that walked through the door. I have found most Catholic congregations to be bored, and going through the motions. While every church may have a handful of volunteers to run the pancake breakfast's and put the donuts out after a monthly service, the enthusiasm in most Catholic churches is extremely lacking.

One thing I realized was different in a Christian church is that people cared about you as an individual. People in my church receive even help if they are having a hard time paying bills, or if their spouse is unemployed. This is done without embarrasment as the money is handed them. Such a thing would never happen in the Catholic church where its so big and beaurcratic its run the same as the welfare office.

I volunteered at my last Catholic church, even ran classes for the kiddies, and had a few friends there, but the church was DEAD as a whole. I remember even while I was teaching RE...{Yes shock of all shocks the soon to be apostate was teaching the little kiddies;)} telling the RE Director, these 7th graders dont even believe in God, can I deviate from the vocabulary lists and chapters about "What the Church teaches" with pro-United Nations chapter, and teach them a little Bible to help them obtain some faith? {By then I was reading the Bible even if I had not gotten to the point of leaving yet} I was told unequivocably "NO WAY! Do not dare deviate from the lesson plans!". So what does that tell you. Little Johnny and Sally are flat out atheists, agnostics, and wannabe Wiccans, and the Catholic church worries more about if they can list the 7 sacraments rather then if they even believe in God.

Reminds me of the priests and nuns when I was 12 years old telling them I was an atheist, herding me into confirmation class.

When I was UU, no Catholics [relative, friend, acquaintance, stranger] ever witnessed to me with one exception. The few who said anything were upset I left the church, no one questioned the role of Christ in my life. I am thankful there was another "crazy fanatic" who witnessed to me over a period of three years, passing out tracts in my neighborhood telling me Jesus Christ was necessary for salvation.

The problem here is the Catholic church has to claim that everyone who disagrees with it are the ones in error, that is why the claims of poor catechization even come against those who have actually sat down and read pages and pages of encyclicals, the entire CCC, and studied beyond your average Catholic. {I realize the Catholics here dont even denote the average ones in the pews, since this board is full of wannabe nuns, and priests, and the more dedicated then the norm}

They have to blame the young people--which I see constantly in Catholic articles, blame the ones who left, rather then looking around and realizing something is really wrong with their church.

Every church-and Ill throw some mainliners in the pot too who have deviated from Gods Word and follow tradition are losing people. The young people think why bother? They look at the interfaith nonsense too and think hey why not be a Buddhist or explore Wicca?

Thank God there are still Christians out in the world preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ.
I am not offended if you tell me I am a heretic and apostate after all it is what your church teaches. Why beat around the bush? Trust me I am not clueless to the fact that according to Roman Catholic teachings the Dalai Lama, a god man who rejects Christ has a far higher chance of getting into heaven then an EX-Catholic Christian.
[/quote]

Budge,

You mentioned a litany (pardon the pun) of things you could not find in the Catholic Church. That's unfortunate, because there are many of us who [i]have[/i] found them by and large inside the Catholic Church; I'm sorry you couldn't. Maybe you should try going to an orthodox charismatic Catholic prayer group - at least as an observer.

And yes, we sometimes find some parish life lacking and get frustrated in dealing with bureaucracy. But you know what - that could be a "dark night of the soul" or "desert time" or "purification time". You are not the only one to have gotten the "blahs". I have (and still do). But I have learned not to let false emotionalism overrun my sanity and that the Catholic Church is more than one priest or nun or bishop or Pope - and if the clergy I know are spiritually dead, I can still be Catholic in spite of it. Those "rote memorization of rules and regulations" that some claim we were "brainwashed" with back in Catholic school then kick in and actually [i]serve a purpose[/i] to remind our consciences of duty toward God. And I'm not going to leave the Catholic Church for two reasons:

1) Holy Eucharist
2) It is the Church that Christ set up personally and so is the one that He meant everyone to be in.

And I'm sure you've figured out by now by your time here that there are plenty of Catholics that are not Bible-illiterate. Sure, we [i]all[/i] have a lot to learn and every time we read we gain new insight. Maybe after a few more times reading the Bible we'll start to make a bit more sense to you, too.

I applaud your past efforts in working with the kids; I think you would have fit in well with something like Vacation Bible School in our parish today if you had stuck it out.


Oh, and one other reason that people leave the Catholic Church. They simply find that God "cramps their style" and they make a false god out of their open zipper and they want license to sin.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Norseman82

[Resurrexi]

[quote]As you well know, the Church does not continually offer Christ. We do not teach it and you do not believe it's really Christ, so both of us agree that the Church doesn't do it. Why keep bringing it up?[/quote]

I beg to disagree

[quote]And now, O Lord, we, Thy servants, and with us all Thy holy people, calling to mind the blessed Passion of this same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, likewise His Resurrection from the grave, and also His glorious Ascension into heaven, do [b]offer[/b] unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us, [b]a Victim[/b] + which is pure, [b]a Victim[/b] + which is holy, [b]a Victim[/b] + which is spotless, the holy Bread + of life eternal, and the Chalice + of everlasting Salvation.[/quote]
~Ordo Missae

[Budge]

I dont like it when they refer to Christ as a Victim.

I did a post protesting that before, let me share it with you.

JESUS FREELY CHOOSE HIS SACRIFICE!

[size=4] Quote:
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and[u] I lay down my life for the sheep.[/u]


Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.


Jhn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.


[/size]

Read this again and again to yourself....

[size=5]Jesus Christ is VICTOR not Victim.
[/size]
“Tetelestai.” 9 It is finished

www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1992.htm

CCC 1992
[quote]
:Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a [u]living victim[/u], holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[/quote]





216.109.117.135/search/ca...1&.intl=us

[quote]Quote:
The Mass is a Sacrifice, because it is our oblation of the Victim once immolated, even as the Supper was the oblation of the Victim to be immolated" (The Last Supper and Calvary, 8) .
[/quote]






ETERNAL VICTIM... :eek

Some Catholics have told me I am wrong when I say that in a fashion the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is on the cross forever denying that it was a one time sacrifice over and done with and that now Jesus is in heaven at right hand of the Father.


[quote]When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors. It is greater than that of the saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even that the power of the Virgin Mary. For, while the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, t[size=5]he priest brings Christ down from Heaven , and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times! [/size]The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest's command.--John A, O'Brien, >I>The Faith of Millions, Our Sunday Visitor (1938) , p. 235; has Nihil obstat & Imprimitur [My emphasis]
[/quote]


Hebrews 6:6

Hebrews 10:11

www.cuttingedge.org/news/rc113

NOT A VICTIM

Being God and having made the universe, Jesus even said in scripture, I COULD HAVE LEGIONS OF ANGELS HERE TO END THIS NOW!

Quote:Not a Victim - Matthew 26:50-54
[quote] Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.


Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.


Mat 26:53 [size=4]Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
[/size]

Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? [/quote]

NOT A VICTIM< A VICTOR!

Edited September 14, 2006 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062306' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:14 AM']I dont like it when they refer to Christ as a Victim.[/quote]Victim is defined in the following ways ([url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=victim"]link[/url]):
[quote]1. a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: (example) a victim of an automobile accident.
2. a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency: (example) a victim of misplaced confidence; the victim of a swindler; a victim of an optical illusion.
3. a person or animal sacrificed or regarded as sacrificed: (example) war victims.
4. a living creature sacrificed in religious rites.[/quote]Aside from definition #2, the term is perfectly appropriate to use to describe Our Lord.

Describing Our Lord as a Victim doesn't take away from His Sovereignty (as you seem to be suggesting).

[quote]ETERNAL VICTIM... :eek [/quote]Our Lord's sacrifice [i]was [/i] eternal (for all time), therefore calling Him Our Eternal Victim makes sense. Further, Our Lord didn't stop giving of Himself when He arrived in heaven. In heaven, He eternally offers Himself to His Father. This relationship within the Trinity didn't change at some moment in time.

[quote]Some Catholics have told me I am wrong when I say that in a fashion the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is on the cross forever denying that it was a one time sacrifice over and done with and that now Jesus is in heaven at right hand of the Father.[/quote]Our Lord is not "on the cross forever"...at least according to the Catholic Church. Quoting from the Creed:[quote]For our sake He ([color="#FF0000"]i.e. Our Lord[/color]) was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
He suffered, died, and was buried. ([color="#FF0000"]note: The crucifixion is past tense[/color])
On the third day He rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. ([color="#FF0000"]note: This is present tense[/color])
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.[/quote]

The mass unites us to the Eternal Sacrifice of Our Lord on Calvary. As St. Paul writes ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians11.htm#v23"]link[/url]):
[quote name='1 Cor. 11:23-26']For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.[/quote]Those who believe that this remembrance has nothing more than a symbolic meaning have to deal with the next verses ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians11.htm#v27"]1 Cor 11:27-34[/url]), in which St. Paul speaks of those who are unworthy eating and drinking judgment upon themselves. If this were purely symbolic, those statements don't really make any sense.

If you'd like something better worded than my late-night arguments, you can check with the "experts" at Catholic.com:

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Institution_of_the_Mass.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp[/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062306' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:14 AM']
NOT A VICTIM

Being God and having made the universe, Jesus even said in scripture, I COULD HAVE LEGIONS OF ANGELS HERE TO END THIS NOW![/quote]

How does being powerful mean that someone cannot also be a victim?

[quote name='Budge' post='1062306' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:14 AM']
NOT A VICTIM< A VICTOR!
[/quote]

Why not both victim [i]and[/i] victor?

[cmotherofpirl]

The word victim isn't in your KJV, that is why you have difficulty with the concept.

Try sacrifice, and using the definition given above for what a victim is.

Ephesians 5:2 -And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Hebrew 9:26 -For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1063335' date='Sep 15 2006, 10:22 AM']
How does being powerful mean that someone cannot also be a victim?
Why not both victim [i]and[/i] victor?
[/quote]
Yes just as Jesus is also Priest-Prophet-King, He is also a Spotless Lamb, and Sacrifice, Victim, Holy Trinity, Lord of Creation, Alpha and Omega. On title or category does NOT exclude others.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062306' date='Sep 13 2006, 11:14 PM']
I dont like it when they refer to Christ as a Victim.
[/quote]
Did Jesus die to save us from our unwillingness to live according to God's will? Isn't he a victim of our sins? If we were living according to God's will, would Jesus be sent by the Father to be sacrificed?

Sure, he voluntarily laid his life down for us, but this doesn't nullify him also being a victim AND being victor. Do you see how he can be both?

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060645' date='Sep 11 2006, 10:08 AM']
He broke it down into those things to show you that the Christian life is much involved then the Catholic life.

Catholics never pass out tracts with rare exceptions, never preach the gospel and unless they are a religious or part of an organization never run ministries.

[/quote]

Translation: Works are not necessary for Salvation, LEAVE THE SPAWN OF SATAN, FOUND ON THE HILLS OF ROME!!!

You left? OK, good now you have to prove you are sooo much better than those Catholics over there so start doing all of these works.

[DAF]

What is "you'ze" a contraction of?

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='DAF' post='1063889' date='Sep 15 2006, 11:37 PM']
What is "you'ze" a contraction of?
[/quote]
you + the verb "to be"

[Eutychus]

[quote]Translation: Works are not necessary for Salvation, LEAVE THE SPAWN OF SATAN, FOUND ON THE HILLS OF ROME!!! [/quote]

Better translation.

Believe the bible. And Revelation 18:4 has to apply to SOMEONE, doesn't it?

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063898' date='Sep 15 2006, 11:45 PM']
Better translation.

Believe the bible. And Revelation 18:4 has to apply to SOMEONE, doesn't it?
[/quote]
I guess you agree with the second part of my translation then?

[DAF]

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' post='1063891' date='Sep 15 2006, 10:39 PM']
you + the verb "to be"
[/quote]
What is " 'ze" a contraction of?