You'ze Wasn't "properly" Catechized !

[scardella]

Budge and Eutychus,

Thank you for revealing your real reason for both posting on here with such fervor and your absolute rejection of Catholicism.

You are evaluating your religion based on the percieved fervor of its participants, not on the truth or lack thereof upon which it stands. Not everything is as it appears to you. I've seen Catholic communities equally or more fervent than fundamentalist churches. There are non-Christians which are equally fervent or even more fervent than most Christians. Islamists, anyone? You can't blame them for not being fervent about their beliefs. I think that sufficiently shows that the commitment, fervor, sincerity of belief, etc. often has little to do with the rightness or wrongness of those beliefs. (Yes, I realize that it's a double-edged sword.)

As for studying the bible, I've had multiple Scripture classes, and I know plenty of Catholics familiar with the bible. I also know people that give quite generously. I give what I can. I do find that Catholics tend to give more in terms of time and talent rather than cash. All your talk of fundamentalists being somehow better Christians because they're giving more is a bunch of hogwash.

The reason you hear so much about catechesis from Catholics is because we care about the truth. Some naively think that all you have to do to evangelize is show them the truth. Unfortunately, that's assuming that emotions aren't playing a huge role in the decisions made. You seem to be carrying quite a bit of bitterness towards the Catholic Church. As I can see it, I can be a fervent fundy or an equally fervent Catholic, but as a Catholic I have access to so much more grace, namely in the sacraments. I also have an institution which guards the truth of the faith.

As a final note, I'd like to add that Christians were celebrating the Sacraments before the bible was composed. Before Paul wrote any of his letters, they were celebrating Mass. They just referred to it as "Breaking of the Bread." Before the books of the bible were definitively defined, they practiced baptism, anointing of the sick, confession, confirmation, matrimony and holy orders. They even had a pope before there was a bible.

BTW, Eutychus, I'd almost guess you were a certain guy I met in Pittsburgh a couple years ago in Market Square while I was doing homeless ministry for FUS.

[Budge]

[quote]
You are evaluating your religion based on the percieved fervor of its participants, not on the truth or lack thereof upon which it stands. Not everything is as it appears to you. I've seen Catholic communities equally or more fervent than fundamentalist churches. There are non-Christians which are equally fervent or even more fervent than most Christians. Islamists, anyone? You can't blame them for not being fervent about their beliefs. I think that sufficiently shows that the commitment, fervor, sincerity of belief, etc. often has little to do with the rightness or wrongness of those beliefs. (Yes, I realize that it's a double-edged sword.)
[/quote]

I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.

[CatholicCid]

I find this topic as quite amusing...

I must be in the twilight zone, for I have never seen anyone on the street passing out tracts or giving speeches, ect... except for Catholics that I had the pleasure of meeting.

The Catholic Church out here provides aid to those who need it. It sends out groups on missionary work to areas that need it. It is the only Church in this area that leaves it's doors open 24/7 incase someone has no place warm to sleep.

The Church out here offers about 3 different types of Bible Studies during the week.

This is just a short list of activities it does.

Edited September 11, 2006 by CatholicCid

[Eutychus]

[quote]
The reason you hear so much about catechesis from Catholics is because we care about the truth. [/quote]

Really?

Over the past few years, I have seen polling done by Catholics ON Catholics coming out of Mass.

In one, only 40% even knew what Transubstantiation even was, when told, most thought it was a protestant lie.

In another, only 20% of Catolics leaving Mass at a BASILICA in the USA, could accurately tell what the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception MEANT! 80% of those departing mass thought it referred to the conception of Jesus without Joseph's assistance.

So, may I suggest, that Massgoers { presumably the better class of RCs } when tested, know squat about anything regarding the Catholic Church, and even less when quizzed on bible matters.

So much for Catechesis of the pew classes. If you get those two wrong, as most do, PRAY TELL, what ARE they teaching there on Sundays?

NOTHING. that is what, nothing at all. It is a REQUIREMENT that you be there, and they produce a Mass. They { the clerics } pretend to lead, and you { the laity } pretend to follow. One big massive fraud, everyone knows, and no one cares.

[scardella]

You know, y'all make me laugh.

[quote name='Budge' post='1060712' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:54 PM']
I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

The Eucharist is Jesus. Sacraments rock my socks, and they'll rock yours, if you let it.

You haven't made any good arguments for them yet. It's funny how much more indoctrinated you sound than us.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060531' date='Sep 10 2006, 11:21 PM']
My Roman Catholic family, thinks I'm NUTSO for doing all that....they are "good Catholics" and ALWAYS make sure they go to Mass, at least once a month, and they always make sure to leave a $5 bill in the basket whenever they do... { despite them being borderline filthy rich... }
[/quote]


I think I see where your venom comes from...

So instead of evaluating each person as an individual, you decided to judge the entire 1.1 billion of us and the Church as a whole based on the actions/inactions of two peeps? Granted, the example they set is not a good one...but it hardly justifies apostasy.

Maybe you should look harder for some good examples of Catholicism and some peeps living the life...Mother Theresa and JP2 are good to start with.

As a layperson, I kinda take offense with being grouped in with cafeteria Catholics (yep - they exist...too darned many of em too). For your examples:

1. we start with a 10% tithe (from the GROSS)
2. we add some on top of that for Sharing in Ministry
3. we give extra when there are second collections
4. we sponsor a family in Guatemala
5. I volunteer as a youth group sponsor/chaperone
6. I teach 2 CCD classes weekly
7. I keep the parish LAN and website running
8. our daughter is a server and in the youth choir and in the youth group
9. we attend Mass at least weekly, often more than that

BTW - I am not the only one in the parish like that - many many others do the same or more..

***HUMILITY ALERT*** not doing this to toot my horn, but merely as an illustration against broad judgements...I KNOW I have quite a ways to go in my walk... ***

[quote name='Budge' post='1060712' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:54 PM']
I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]


O RLY?

I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false - back it up...

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members - back it up...

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation - back it up...

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE - back it up...

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ - so untrue...but feel free to try to back it up....

[Eutychus]

[quote] As a layperson, I kinda take offense with being grouped in with cafeteria Catholics (yep - they exist...too darned many of em too). For your examples:

1. we start with a 10% tithe (from the GROSS)
2. we add some on top of that for Sharing in Ministry
3. we give extra when there are second collections
4. we sponsor a family in Guatemala
5. I volunteer as a youth group sponsor/chaperone
6. I teach 2 CCD classes weekly
7. I keep the parish LAN and website running
8. our daughter is a server and in the youth choir and in the youth group
9. we attend Mass at least weekly, often more than that

BTW - I am not the only one in the parish like that - many many others do the same or more..[/quote]

Amazing!

Seriously, congrats.

I knew they were out there somewhere, but you are the first one I've encountered outside of the clergy.

You are to be highly praised and should be seen as a real rolemodel.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060712' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:54 PM']
I believe the lack of fervency is centered on the fact that the doctrines of Catholicism are false.

You cannot claim we left Catholicism due to only the failings of its members.

I left because Catholicism is not TRUE, and is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation.

I reject the Mass, Sacraments, Purgatory, Eucharist, Papal infallibility, apostolic succession among dozens of Catholic doctrines, disciplines and teachings as UNTRUE.

I have noticed the Catholics faith is centered in their church and its sacraments which keep them tied to the system throughout their life, my faith is centered in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

You have anecdotal evidence, nothing more. You have noticed means you think. You do not know the hearts of Catholics. You are only a person. Too much of your enmity seems directed at people as opposed to the Church. The hypocrisy you percieved is hypocrisy. That means it's at odds with the teachings. The lack of fervor is told of in the Bible many times, I think.

Again, that's people. Leave the personal actions out of it and discuss the teachings.

[MIKolbe]

Budge-

Thank you for your kind words as you started your response. I enjoy a civil dialog. I hope you are 'ok' now in terms of your health.

I think we agree and disagree at the same time. Though this seems odd. and is hard for me to put into words. maybe i think your base argument is correct, but your extrapolation is off-base. again, i am just being honest,...but i feel some truth in the words you write. And that is an honest feeling i have.

I will read your words again and pray. I will have something for you later...be patient.... I am really not that smart... i am just a fool for Christ... maybe if i see you online i will PM you too, would you mind that?

Peace and God's Blessings be upon you.

MIKolbe

[Jaime]

[quote]That is where you are mistaken.

Knowing Jesus Christ is life-changing. Going through rituals, rites, and following religious rules does not equate a true relationship with God, where you obey His Commandments because you LOVE HIM and realize what God has done for you. John 3:16.

No religious system, church or rituals or rites will save you, only TOTAL TRUST in JESUS CHRIST.
[/quote]

Knowing Jesus is life changing. Applying the sacraments he gave to us is life changing. And yes our trust is in Jesus Christ.

John 3:16? I'm at a loss.. Anyone familiar with this passage? It seems pretty obscure to me. Anyone?


Bueller?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1060720' date='Sep 11 2006, 02:03 PM']Over the past few years, I have seen polling done by Catholics ON Catholics coming out of Mass.

In one, only 40% even knew what Transubstantiation even was, when told, most thought it was a protestant lie.

In another, only 20% of Catolics leaving Mass at a BASILICA in the USA, could accurately tell what the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception MEANT! 80% of those departing mass thought it referred to the conception of Jesus without Joseph's assistance.[/quote]So you're claiming that many Catholics [i]aren't[/i] properly catechized? It makes me wonder why you even start a thread like this.

You begin by complaining about Catholics who assume you were poorly catechesized. You yourself stated:[quote]so MOST of us have to invest in biblical commentaries, tapes, lessons, books, and other "get up to speed" materials to make up for the so seriously deficient training in Gods word [/quote]Then, you admit that you personally received bad catechesis! And you wonder why we take your word for it?

Maybe you're just angry and need to vent. We just happen to be the ones here who offer you our other cheek
([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew5.htm#v39"]Matthew 5:39-46[/url]).

As individual Christians, all we can do is preach the Gospel one day at a time. Using statistics to cause despair doesn't do anything to advance the Kingdom of God on earth.

[Aloysius]

[quote]I knew they were out there somewhere, but you are the first one I've encountered outside of the clergy.[/quote]

visit a weekday mass sometime. cafeteria catholics come to mass on sundays, if even that.. along with some faithful catholics and some real ferverent catholics... but on weekdays every last butt in the pew is a real ferverent god-fearing tithing Christian who tries to live the gospel every day of his life.

but the cafeteria catholics do not prove our doctrines wrong, no matter how much you'd like them to. there are plenty of people who believe in our doctrines who are ferverent and faithful and live their lives daily for God. not all people are called to the specific vocation of being out on the street preaching or going door to door, but every one of the folks you'd find at daily mass witness to their friends, neighbors, and relatives and raise their kids Christian.

if you believe our doctrines to be false, then attack our doctrines. use logic, reason, the scriptures, but stick to attacking the doctrines and not the people. you are doing an en masse ad hominem logical fallacy... step up and do en masse ad argumentum against the doctrinal argument presented by the Church. if they are false in and of themselves, then they will prove false when scrutinized according to the scriptures and human reason.... but be wary not to beg the question (if the question is idolatry, you can't just shout: 'look at this statue, they are idolatrous!), keep the focus on the argument not the people, and then you have the beginnings of real fruitful dialogue.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060657' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:12 PM']
Who says my family was unfaithful, as far as Catholic goes with the fact that both parents were quite involved in the Catholic school and my mother's best friend was a nun, my family as far as Catholicism goes couldnt have been mistaken for anything else. How many Catholics actually talk about God on a daily basis even the ones who are considered FAITHFUL?[/quote]

I'm surrounded by about 2400 Catholics who talk about God on at least an hourly basis, and many more frequently than that.

Being friends with a nun is not what makes a person Catholic.

[quote]The Faithful Catholic, is different from the faithful Christian. The Christian is out in the streets witnessing passing out tracts, preaching the gospel, running ministries, living for God daily while the faithful Catholic may go to Mass more often or visit a few shrines {My family did that as well by the way} the focus is far different. The Faithful Catholic focuses on the Catholic church as their means to salvation. The Faithful Christian focuses on Jesus Christ.
The unfaithful Catholics who still go to church merely ignore some of the rules, and go to Mass a bit less or say a few less rosaries.[/quote]

1. You are making a very fallacious assumption by saying that all faithful Christians pass out tracts. I have two defenses: first, St. Paul did no such thing, nor did any Christians at all, until after the printing press was invented (by a Catholic); second, nowhere in the Scriptures or anywhere else is it suggested that tracts are the best, primary, or most effective method of evangelization. In fact, they are not. I find tracts in themselves to be a rather cowardly approach (granted, I don't have much courage, myself)...no one reads them, and when you're judged, you'll be able to claim that you tried to spread God's word. The question is, did you really try? Tracts can be good, but only when they are backed up with example, prayer, and faith.

2. The faithful Catholic (and I don't believe you've ever been exposed to many, as is evident from your bias) has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and clings to the Church, since Jesus saves not only the individual soul, but the Church. One who therefore wants to be saved knows that Christ has one spouse, Holy Mother Church, and wishes to come to her, because she has been saved, is being saved, and will be saved.

3. Salvation does not collapse in on itself without the rosary. Everyone on earth could get to heaven without praying the rosary. It just would make things much more difficult and complicated than they need to be. As for going to fewer Masses, well, what you're saying seems to accuse Catholics of saying that those who don't want to spend time with God won't be saved. I would say that's exactly it. If you don't care about God enough to see Him at least as often as He asks, 1/168th of your life, then you don't ever really care to see Him, and most likely, asked point blank if you love Him, you would deny it.

[scardella]

Why is it that people manage to put things so much more eloquently than I could when I try to argue something?

Anyway, why are you judging us?

[Budge]

[quote]
1. You are making a very fallacious assumption by saying that all faithful Christians pass out tracts. I have two defenses: first, St. Paul did no such thing, nor did any Christians at all, until after the printing press was invented (by a Catholic); second, nowhere in the Scriptures or anywhere else is it suggested that tracts are the best, primary, or most effective method of evangelization. In fact, they are not. I find tracts in themselves to be a rather cowardly approach (granted, I don't have much courage, myself)...no one reads them, and when you're judged, you'll be able to claim that you tried to spread God's word. The question is, did you really try? Tracts can be good, but only when they are backed up with example, prayer, and faith.[/quote]

They dont have to pass out tracts, preach the WORD, if the person cant read.

Tracts work well for people you dont know personally where there is no opportunity to sit down and have some chats.

You are right if someone just hands people tracts and puts no more effort towards preaching the Word, that isnt good either.
[quote]
2. The faithful Catholic (and I don't believe you've ever been exposed to many, as is evident from your bias) has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and clings to the Church, since Jesus saves not only the individual soul, but the Church. One who therefore wants to be saved knows that Christ has one spouse, Holy Mother Church, and wishes to come to her, because she has been saved, is being saved, and will be saved.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is a middleman and 1. Never teaches that a person must be born again, and with its continual sacrifice of Jesus CHrist on its altars {yes I know you teach it is a representing the one time sacrifice} and false doctrines, puts up endless roadblocks to people who need to trust in Christ alone for salvation and realize His work on the cross was totally sufficient.
[quote]
If you don't care about God enough to see Him at least as often as He asks, 1/168th of your life, then you don't ever really care to see Him, and most likely, asked point blank if you love Him, you would deny it.
[/quote]

The born again Christian has the Holy Spirit, there is no need to visit a wafer in a building to go "see" God. That is not faith but desiring a god that can be seen in the "flesh".