curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 IF your intent is not lustful but arousal occures around another person and you do not immediatly and fully remove yourself from the situation which is causing this to happen, but rather try and ignore it, are you violating the "no intentional arousal outside of marriage". Also, lets say you do remove yourself from the situation temporarily but return, pretty much knowing it will happen again but with the intention, again, not of lust, but to be close with that person and share simple, non sexual, physical signs of affection, are you violating the aforementioned boundry? Simply put, your intent is not lustful or to become aroused to gain sexual pleasure or gratification from the person, but you pretty much know arousal can occur and place yourself in the situation anyways. Thanks and God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 bump- anyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 double bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 This should probably be in Q&A. As a scrupulant, I have similar questions. You've really hit the core of a common scrupulous question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 ok then mod-- if you could move this under q and a section i appologize for misplacing it Raphael- would you say then this would be more over scrupulocity than anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 My opinion: You're avoiding the "occasion to sin"? There is no deliberate action? Just don't go masturbating afterward, right? No harm, no foul. I wouldn't sweat it. Enjoy your time together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 what do u mean by occasion to sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 [quote name='curtins' post='1059748' date='Sep 9 2006, 05:17 PM'] what do u mean by occasion to sin? [/quote] Occasion to sin… occasion of sin. Whatever. I mean ...don’t “[i]set your self up[/i]” for an [i]opportunity to sin[/i]. Avoid temptation. You know we must be safe and move freely in areas free of evil thought and action as much as possible – and lingering exposure will breed danger. But you know this and act on this; you aware, and this is to your credit. Act on your knowledge – and you are right now. Keep up you holiness – you are called to be a saint! We all are! And we all need examples… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 [quote]You know we must be safe and move freely in areas free of evil thought and action as much as possible – and lingering exposure will breed danger. [/quote] I'm not sure I follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 I think I'm just being overly scrupulous. However I've decided I will talk to her about the fact I am sensitive to certain things due to my past problems with pornography and will re-affirm with her that in our relationship we should strive for angelic purity because love is complete self giving and concern for the other, espeically their soul. Another thing I was thinking of is that I would not want to lead her into anything her dad would not be ok with and I still have to talk to him about our relationship. That being said (in no way to blame her), in this instance, or others, I have not been physical with her (besides a quick hug goodbye or something). In saying that I mean I have not even put my arm around her, held her close, cuddled or done such things that people typically associate with that. etc. The situation has devoloped from her simple and small signs of affection towards me- resting her head on my shoulder or even sitting right up against me and my not doing anything. The only exception may be the fact that our hands have met on a few occasions but no prolonged "hand holding". So I'm looking at pureloveclub.com questions and answers at "how far is too far" and like the LEAST sexual thing mentioned is making out- which I'd never do to her. When people ask about how far is too far it seems they want to get out of the person the most gratification they can without crossing the virginity line. That is by NO means what I'm trying to figure out. what I'm talking about is very innocent signs of affection and how I can phyiscally show my affection to this girl with my fragile purity. And so I'm thinking this is really just silly (and your probably thinking the same thing) and this is just my scruples. I've spent the whole day basically trying to figure this out and honestly, worrying about it. But I will talk to her about it and I'm thinking I'm gonna write a prayer that both of us can say together and sorta "consecrate" ourselves together to God in purity and have a 100% commitment to purity. And I have to keep praying that I will overcome this oversensitivity to the seemingly smallest things- a scar of pornography. Thanks for listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 [quote name='curtins' post='1059610' date='Sep 9 2006, 10:45 AM'] IF your intent is not lustful but arousal occures around another person and you do not immediatly and fully remove yourself from the situation which is causing this to happen, but rather try and ignore it, are you violating the "no intentional arousal outside of marriage". Also, lets say you do remove yourself from the situation temporarily but return, pretty much knowing it will happen again but with the intention, again, not of lust, but to be close with that person and share simple, non sexual, physical signs of affection, are you violating the aforementioned boundry? Simply put, your intent is not lustful or to become aroused to gain sexual pleasure or gratification from the person, but you pretty much know arousal can occur and place yourself in the situation anyways. Thanks and God bless [/quote] I don't know the details here, but sounds like scrupulosity to me. Seriously, relax and take it easy! (While I may get censored for this) The simple fact is, if you're a healthy young male, you're going to get erections now and then, no matter how chaste and holy you are, especially if you're around attractive females. If you didn't, you may want to see a doctor. As long as you are not being around this girl for the purpose of arousing lust in yourself, and you don't find that being with her always causes you to deliberately sin with her or masturbate, and she is not attempting to seduce you, then there's probably no problem. Being chaste is not the same as being sexless, and obsessing about such things will only make temptation worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 (edited) [quote name='curtins' post='1059807' date='Sep 9 2006, 07:27 PM'] I think I'm just being overly scrupulous. However I've decided I will talk to her about the fact I am sensitive to certain things due to my past problems with pornography and will re-affirm with her that in our relationship we should strive for angelic purity because love is complete self giving and concern for the other, espeically their soul. Another thing I was thinking of is that I would not want to lead her into anything her dad would not be ok with and I still have to talk to him about our relationship. That being said (in no way to blame her), in this instance, or others, I have not been physical with her (besides a quick hug goodbye or something). In saying that I mean I have not even put my arm around her, held her close, cuddled or done such things that people typically associate with that. etc. The situation has devoloped from her simple and small signs of affection towards me- resting her head on my shoulder or even sitting right up against me and my not doing anything. The only exception may be the fact that our hands have met on a few occasions but no prolonged "hand holding". So I'm looking at pureloveclub.com questions and answers at "how far is too far" and like the LEAST sexual thing mentioned is making out- which I'd never do to her. When people ask about how far is too far it seems they want to get out of the person the most gratification they can without crossing the virginity line. That is by NO means what I'm trying to figure out. what I'm talking about is very innocent signs of affection and how I can phyiscally show my affection to this girl with my fragile purity. And so I'm thinking this is really just silly (and your probably thinking the same thing) and this is just my scruples. I've spent the whole day basically trying to figure this out and honestly, worrying about it. But I will talk to her about it and I'm thinking I'm gonna write a prayer that both of us can say together and sorta "consecrate" ourselves together to God in purity and have a 100% commitment to purity. And I have to keep praying that I will overcome this oversensitivity to the seemingly smallest things- a scar of pornography. Thanks for listening. [/quote] I would like to ask that only the males reading view the following passage. I would also ask anyone to correct me in anything I may get wrong. The following are the bits of theology and spiritual direction I have worked through for myself. We as human beings learn from our past. Sometimes scrupulants, however, draw false associations. We can say, for instance, that intentionally producing sexual reactions from the body is a sin against chastity. However, the scrupulant may think that any sexual reaction from the body is immoral. Scrupulant males may, therefore, be afraid to have a girl smile at them, to touch, hug, or hold hands with a girl, or even (in extreme cases) to fall asleep intentionally. However, in order to sin, you must intend the sin. Falling asleep becomes a good example because it is easy to see that there is no sin there. If it results in a wet dream (those who read this may be surprised, but there are men who feel great shame and fear of hell after them), it is not at all the same as if a man purposely and intentionally produced that sexual result. Likewise, the sin isn't in placing yourself in the presence of your beloved. The sin is if, with your beloved, you intentionally (that means consciously) sought sexual gratification at the expense of her dignity. The sin isn't in the bodily reaction; the sin is what causes the bodily reaction. Is going to bed causing the wet dream? It's certainly a precondition, but is going to bed a sin? No. Is masturbation? Yes. You must learn to do the same with anything else. Is the reaction of your body, the arousal, immoral? No, not in itself...it's a natural reaction...not only that, it's a sign that you feel affection for this person. That's a good thing. Let's say you give your girlfriend a hug or a kiss and you feel that you are becoming aroused. That's supposed to happen. Is giving your girlfriend a hug or a kiss bad? No. So is there a sin? Not as long as you didn't intend to get a sexual reaction out of it. Your intent was merely to engage in a simple exchange of love. Now you may ask, "but don't we know sins by the evil they cause?" Yes, we do, but as I said, sexual reactions aren't where the evil lies in auto-eroticism. The evil comes way before that point. The evil comes when you decide to put your will against what you know is right. Now, also, you may say that we know sins by the evil they cause, but it's not just that, we know sins because of the evil the sinner intends to cause. If I go for a drive one afternoon and run over a pedestrian who jumped out in front of me, one might call me a murderer, but that doesn't make it true. Nor should I, fearing that I might kill another person, stop driving. Likewise, as Lounge Daddy said, we need to have the freedom to go about our lives. Satan would love for you not to spend any time at all socializing with loved ones. He knows that you want to do God's will and fear offending God, so he will try his worst to make you afraid to do any good at all, for fear of doing evil. You need to have the confidence that you will not sin, and certainly not mortally, without your consent. You need to realize that you need to spend time around this person so that your body can adjust to being around them (of course your body's getting excited, that happens), and you need to ignore the fact that you are aroused (and don't try to focus on ignoring, either, thinking to yourself, "am I ignoring it sufficiently?"). Every moral act (that is, an act dealing with morality) has an object, a means, and circumstances. If the object you intend is good (exchanging love with your girlfriend), and the means are good (hugging), and the circumstances don't lead to evil or sin, then you are okay. Let's say, though, that you mean to go visit the mountains (a good object) and you drive along (means), but that you know that there is a bridge out ahead (circumstances), then it would be stupid (and a sin of imprudence) to drive on. Now, if you know that there is a bridge ahead and you keep worrying that maybe it might be out (even though it doesn't have a recent history of being destroyed and seems to all human reason to be sturdy and reliable), then you're being scrupulous. The same goes for this...your object is good, your means are good, and you're worried about the circumstances. Well, arousal isn't bad in itself. Arousal isn't what makes arousal bad. So as a circumstance, it's nothing to worry about and not worth your time or mental/spiritual energy. If the circumstance were bad in itself, then we'd need to talk. Having said all that (and what a mouthful), modesty demands that we not place ourselves in the occasion to sin. If you're hugging her and start to notice that you have a deep, overwhelming desire to touch her somewhere you shouldn't at this time, or to do something else that [b]is[/b] wrong in itself (always, no matter how or when) or something that is wrong given the circumstances (say, in your state in life, i.e. sex would be circumstantially wrong if you're not married to the woman), then you should step back and let yourself cool off. Humility is important to that...it is easy to push yourself into sin by saying, "I'm strong enough," but none of us are. At the same time, we can also say, "I just won't touch or look at any member of the opposite sex again," but that could also violate humility...the humility that allows us to trust in God. Pray for a properly formed conscience. Edited September 9, 2006 by Raphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 I'll tell you streight up that being around her does not cause me to sin (because I've come to the conclusion that the aforementioned was not sin) and I don't know where talk of masturbation came from but theres none of that thankfully lol. And shes not attempting to seduce me. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' post='1059829' date='Sep 9 2006, 07:58 PM'] I don't know the details here, but sounds like scrupulosity to me. Seriously, relax and take it easy! (While I may get censored for this) The simple fact is, if you're a healthy young male, you're going to get erections now and then, no matter how chaste and holy you are, especially if you're around attractive females. If you didn't, you may want to see a doctor. As long as you are not being around this girl for the purpose of arousing lust in yourself, and you don't find that being with her always causes you to deliberately sin with her or masturbate, and she is not attempting to seduce you, then there's probably no problem. Being chaste is not the same as being sexless, and obsessing about such things will only make temptation worse. [/quote] O Socrates, you managed to condense my thesis into a few shorter paragraphs. [quote name='curtins' post='1059853' date='Sep 9 2006, 08:23 PM'] I'll tell you streight up that being around her does not cause me to sin (because I've come to the conclusion that the aforementioned was not sin) and I don't know where talk of masturbation came from but theres none of that thankfully lol. And shes not attempting to seduce me. Thanks again [/quote] I don't think anyone was assuming masturbation, it's just a good example of what not to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 oh lol I could give alot of examples of what not to do. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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