Jesus Is A Human Being(disconnect Line& Read

[Hermione]

So,being a mankind, he escaped .suppose that one of you have a strong bodyguard . All of a sudden, someone attacked your bodyguard and knocked him down. What is your feeling and eaction toward your guard? Won’t you fire him instantly?

So is the God in form of Jesus who escape. A God escapes nd unable to even defend himself is not a real God. So , Iesa(Jesus) is a human being and a messenger

Um.. I'm sorry but I don't really think Jesus came down from Heaven just to take petty revenge on the people who rejected him (unlike some others) or put on an amesome pyrotechnic show just so people would tremble at his feet (not this time anyway)... He came down to sacrifice his life (thus "lamb of God")~ He had a singular, all-important task of saving us (through the spreading of his Word and through his death on the cross), and nothing else was more important than that. His escaping did not show cowardice- it showed propriety (when people don't want you around, you leave; not stay around and be a pain in the neck)~

What is between the fisrt and the last? Is not it immortality?well, to be the first is to be eternal and before his Father. If Jesus was crucified , then who is the last? Is he who was crucified? OR the Creator of the crucified?

Our God is a singular entity~ We are monotheists, not dualists or "triplist?"~ They are one and the same.. God as the TRINITY is the first and the last~ How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?

Ok, generally, I think your views on Christianity, or on religion generally, is based on empiricist facts~ You can't base religion on these things.. The sanctity of the body and the soul cannot be defined logically, and neither can faith. If you want to nitpick at every illogical detail and push it aside as rubbish, then divinity does not exist, simply because we haven't experienced it- not in the logical, scientific "hey-there-he-is-crossing-the-street" way, of course~

P.S. Peace need not be upon our God~ For he is *the* embodiment of peace~

May the force be with you, soldier! :ph34r:

[Hermione]

Our God is a singular entity~ We are monotheists, not dualists or "triplist?"~ They are one and the same.. God as the TRINITY is the first and the last~ How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?

this part's my reply~ oops.

[jasJis]

ayed,

May the grace of God dwell forever in your heart.

You stated that God's attributes are different than Man's.

If consider Iesa(Jesus) a God , then how come he is a human at the same time? God’s attributes are definitely different from human being’s.It impossible to have a God and a human being in only one character.

In the Christian mind, this is an affront to God's power. What can be impossible to God? God can die, but not suffer death. Death cannot be forced upon God. Weakness cannot be forced upon God. God allowed Himself to be weak and to suffer death at our Hands. But by the Omnipotent Power of God, that Weakness He made into Strength, that Death, He made into Eternal Life. God has complete power over Himself.

In Jesus Christ, His Son and God, He made Himself vulnerable to our slap. But because of His All Powerful Love, our slap does not cause Him to hate us, but instead He returns His love and pity for us so that we may see the evil we did and reject that evil to accept His love.

If you dare to believe that God's Power is Unlimited and cannot be contained or controlled by anyone or anything except by God and that God has complete control of even His own existence, then you can realize the immense Power and Omnipotence of a God who can be God and man at the same time.

[Donna]

No, the real challenge is to dispel and slay this Mannichean spirit, rife in the world today, which cannot believe that matter is good, not evil.

This man cannot accept that God would take on human flesh.

It is the temptation of temptations.

Mary Immaculate, destroyer of all heresies, ora pro nobis!

[ayed]

In the name of Allah , the Most merciful , the Most gracious

Ironmonk :

Thank you.

(*) “did not call mohammed names, I simply stated facts.

A-Facts in your christian view but thy are actually groundless falllacies.

(*)Allah has brought you to this site for a reason. We worship the same God. God wants you to know the truth.

A-I agree with you that our God(Allah) is only one BUT you believe in THREE.

(*)For the koran to be true, then the OT and NT must be false... but since the koran teaches that the OT and NT are true, then the koran must be false and the koran is it's own downfall. I don't know what happened to mohammed in the desert, except I do know that he did NOT see the Angel Gabriel, and he is not a prophet.

A-our prophet Muammad(peae be upon him)saw the Angel Gabiel(peace be upon him) .

(*)The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. Both clearly show that Jesus is the son of God. The koran denies this, therefore the koran is wrong.

(*)kindly, Ironmonk , RE-READ my topic about Iesa(Jesus)(peace be upon him) and I don’t need someone to prove verity of the Holy Quran .

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Anna said:

(*)”Several times you referred to our blessed Saint Paul as a "fabricator," yet you don't want us to comment on your Mohammed”.

A-I did not say your blessed Sain Paul was a fabricator. You are all welcomed to ask about my prophet Muhmmad(peace be upon him)

(*) I simply think that someone who comes on with his first post saying, "I want to be convinced," and by his third post is quoting Protestants and hurling insults at one of our greatest saints, isn't here to be convinced or to dialogue.

A-Don’t blame me , Anna !! count how many of you against one.

So, some people try to divert our attention off the main topic or ask me some questions irrelevant to the talking point.

(*)Don't begin your posts with words of peace, then attack our beliefs. It's disingenuous

A- I didn’t attack your beliefs . I discuss them only.

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Don John of Austria

My dear pal , do not be disappoint .I may somewhat seem to be late because of some business.

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Winchester:

(*)why did God not destroy Satan and thus all evil in the world? Why doesn't God now destroy all who oppose Him? Is He not all-powerful?

God has a plan, Ayed, and His motivations and counsel are His own.

A-there is no doubt that Allah(God) is the Oneness and All-powerfull.

Our discussion about”Why do some people believe in Iesa(Jesus)(peace be upon him) as a God.?please don’t evade the debatepoint.Just read my response earlier.

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Chrysologus:

(*)Being that God is infinitely powerful, he can choose to take on a human body and soul if he wills. In all ways, he remains God, but he, in the second person of the Holy Trinity, is now also a man. It is, of course, a great mystery, incomprehensible to us, but that is its truth and beauty.

A-Honestly, answer my question:

logically, imagine that you are a general in the army will you choose ,by your own self ,to be a corporal or a soldier?I defy you to accept it .

Allah(God)is impossible and Has not to be in a lower postion than His highest Throne in the seventh heaven.

(*)Jesus promised that he would found a church which would be indefectable and lead the world into all truth about his Father.

A-Allah(God) is one . He has no son.He is not in need of His weak creatures as Iesa(Jesus)or prophet Muhammad(peace be upon them)

Since you believe Jesus was a holy prophet, surely he didn't lie when he said this. So, how can you say that his church is wrong in identifying Jesus as God with his Father and the Holy Spirit?

A-this is your belief, as for me, Iesa(Jesus) is a human being like me and you but Allah(God) Has chosen Iesa(Jesus)as the last messenger of Iseral and Allah(God) endowed him with miracles.That is, Iesa(Jesus)IS able to peroform miracle such as when he found a widow weeping at her single son who was dead and Iesa asked him to come to his feet(became alive)

(*)Why did God allow the church to mess up the true message of Islam and thus require correction from Mohammed.

A-Allah(God) is definitely impossible to be contradictory. Allah sent His messengers with His divine messages to teach people how to worship Him. What happened is that some people changed and manipulated some divine teachings .Allah sent Muhammad to correct what was wrong in people’s beliefs.Allah Has Created the Paradise and the Hell. Worship Him and do good deeds and By His Mercy, you will enter His Paradise. Worship beside Him and another of His Creature, you will enter His Hell.

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Hermione:

(*)He came down to sacrifice his life (thus "lamb of God")~ He had a singular, all-important task of saving us (through the spreading of his Word and through his death on the cross), and nothing else was more important than that.

A-If Allah(God) sacrificed His only son to atone for the sins of mankind, and that this son was a god. If it was true that he was a god who was beaten, insulted and crucified, and died, then this doctrine contains elements of blasphemy because it accuses God of weakness and helplessness. Is God really incapable of forgiving the sins of all His servants with just one word? If He is Able to do all things (and the Christians do not dispute this fact), then why would He need to sacrifice His son in order to achieve the same thing? (Glorified and exalted be He far above what the wrongdoers say about Him!)

“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.” [al-An’aam 6:101 – interpretation of the meaning]

An ordinary man would not accept anyone harming his child; he would come to his defence, and would never hand him over to an enemy who would insult him, let alone leave him to face the worst kind of death. If this is the attitude of a mere created being, what then of the Creator?

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Hermione:

plagiarizedly quoted and distorted :

“What is between the fisrt and the last? Is not it immortality?well, to be the first is to be eternal and before his Father. If Jesus was crucified , then who is the last? Is he who was crucified? OR the Creator of the crucified?

Our God is a singular entity~ We are monotheists, not dualists or "triplist?"~ They are one and the same.. God as the TRINITY is the first and the last~ How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?”

Hermione ! Why did your golden fingers messed up typed and distorted my words?

If you are unable to debate or discuss as other dear members , kindly , don’t quote “as if I said it”to do a snow job on our dear members and readers.

I say , my dear members and readers at Phatmass Forum ,that we merely discuss the differences between my beliefs and yours.That is it.

You are still Christian and nothing changed.

Thank you all of you for spending value time to answer my questions .

Anyone who is still steamed up or so bent out of the shape, I say, to him , become more laid-back and have some shots of cold fresh lemon juice and prepare for another coming issues.

Again thank you all .

Read your dear comments soon.

Bye,

;)

[benedict_x]

Ya know, I'm really starting to get annoyed at people calling Jesus (my Best friend) "weak" and "a coward". Its the same bloody accusations the satanists give.

Here's my reply. Its simplifies some of the arguments my phamiliy has made. Hopefully it'll give some illumination to ANYONE that wants to talk about my Best friend and Saviour.

Lets start at the begining,

God promised He'll send someone to save us from the Sin of Adam in the OT.

He did, His Son Jesus in the NT.

All the prophcies that were made in the OT were fullfilled in the NT therefore no one can refute that the Vulgate (Bible) is wrong.

The jigsaw is complete.

Jesus was fully God and fully man.

Why did He chose to be man?

To show He was closer to us than we ever expected.

To show that He wanted to be with us, to develop a relationship with us.

To show that He, though God (All Mighty), wanted us to be His friends.

Why did He display human traits?

To show that He understands what we go through in our lives.

When "stones" were thrown at me for standing up for my faith I looked towards Jesus and He experienced the same thing too. I know He understands what I've been through and like Him, I stand firmly for what I belived in.

Actions speak louder than words.

As a lowly human being, God can tell me from heaven "I understand you" a million times and I'll still won't be fully convinced. Its when He shows me then I know He understands.

If you cut yourself on the finger I can go "Oh I feel for you." but you won't belive it till I cut my finger as well.

Jesus's meekness?

My God gave an example that violence is not the way to change a person's heart.

If I had power and I forced you to be my friend you'd say that you are my friend but would your heart feel the same? Jesus could have called upon legions of His angels to come to his aid but what would that accomplish? He would strike fear in the hearts of the people and they would worship Him, but would they Love Him?

If your partner/spouse made you fear her, would you love her?

Our Trinitarian God.

My phamily has given more than enough examples on how the Trinity works.

1) 1 to the power of 3 (I dun know how to type a maths equation)

2) Shamrock

You do realise that in the Koran that God refers to Himself as "We"

I read the english translated version.

Since God is three persons in one. He can choose to use "We" or "I" as much as He wants.

God is All Powerful and a mystery to us all. He gives us enough infomation to understand who He is. To keep banging your head on the wall to try and comprehend fully the Trinity is like asking God millions of really pointless questions.

"Why did you make plants green?"

"When you drink water, you live. Why when water drinks you, you die?"

"Why did you make it rain for forty days to flood the world when you can just make water appear out of nowhere?"

"Why did you let satan rebel against you?"

"How exactly did you take sand and breathed life into my first parents?"

Some answers that we can understand, God gives us.

Some that we cant, He doesnt, and we just trust Him.

Its called providence.

Pax.

[Winchester]

ayed,

I evade nothing. I asked you a comparable question. Obviously, you have no answer for God's not destroying evil, and that is all the answer I really needed.

[ayed]

In the name of Allah , the Most merciful , the Most gracious

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

(*)Question: Why didn’t Iesa(Jesus)(peac be upon him) say:

“in the name of the Father and mine and the Holy Spirit”?

(*)Linguiscally discussing, as I refuted this sentenence, I again say :

The “And” is a conjunctive word .It does not necessitate equality between the two connected things, for instance, when you say:

I and my son came”.

-- both of you are equal in “coming action”

--you are different from your son in qualities and character.

Then : you # your son

--the Father # the Son

as you believe in the THREE Gods , they are different from each other.

So, the result is that you believe in Tribeliefe which leads to

The equation :1+1+1= 3

But NOT as someone who manipulated the equation ,beased on his belief, to be an illogicl one :1*1*1=1

(*)In the Holy Quran , the following verse:”

" But honour, power and glory belong to Allâh, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not”

Since we, Muslim, believe in only one God(Allah), we don’t definitly consider the conjunctive word”and” as an equlizer among Allah , His messenger(Muhammad SAW) and the believers.

Have you recognized the difference?

Thanks

[benedict_x]

(*)Question: Why didn’t Iesa(Jesus)(peac be upon him) say:

“in the name of the Father and mine and the Holy Spirit”?

Answer: Because then during Baptisim we would have to say "I baptise thee in the name of The Father, Mine, and The Holy Spirit"

Jesus already told the apostles much earlier that He was The Son. He gave them the exact words to say when performing the rite of baptisim.

(*)Linguiscally discussing, as I refuted this sentenence, I again say :

The “And” is a conjunctive word .It does not necessitate equality between the two connected things, for instance, when you say:

I and my son came”.

-- both of you are equal in “coming action”

--you are different from your son in qualities and character.

Then : you # your son

--the Father # the Son

as you believe in the THREE Gods , they are different from each other.

So, the result is that you believe in Tribeliefe which leads to

The equation :1+1+1= 3

But NOT as someone who manipulated the equation ,beased on his belief, to be an illogicl one :1*1*1=1

Answer: Thats not a good enough argument.

I could easily say that you # you son could be The Father*The Son as well.

And this is not the thread to argue about the Trinity. You wanna argue, find the other thread. You still have to refute my debate on Jesus's humanity.

[jasJis]

ayed,

No comment for me?

Human mind cannot comprehend the scope of God's power. What seems impossible by the human mind requires less than a thought by God to be reality.

Is it better to dare to say "God cannot do that, it is impossible!"

or to say "God has done it, and I, a mere human created by Him, cannot comprehend it."

[Hermione]

I think my brother (benedict_x) has answered your question for me, ayed, and for the record, read all my threads before accusing me of plagarism~ The part where I quoted:

What is between the fisrt and the last? Is not it immortality?well, to be the first is to be eternal and before his Father. If Jesus was crucified , then who is the last? Is he who was crucified? OR the Creator of the crucified?

Our God is a singular entity~ We are monotheists, not dualists or "triplist?"~ They are one and the same.. God as the TRINITY is the first and the last~ How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?

was immediately followed by:

Our God is a singular entity~ We are monotheists, not dualists or "triplist?"~ They are one and the same.. God as the TRINITY is the first and the last~ How many times do we have to repeat ourselves?

this part's my reply~ oops.

Why would I have intentionally plagarized your quotes with words like that? First of all, you're obviously arguing against this, and secondly, it would give you way too much credit~

[Hermione]

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

(*)Question: Why didn’t Iesa(Jesus)(peac be upon him) say:

“in the name of the Father and mine and the Holy Spirit”?

1. He's God. Let him refer to himself in the third-person if he feels like it.

2. Think about it. He’s asking people to baptize others in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” If, like you said, God=the Father only, then he’d just have went “in the name of the Father.” It was an obvious reference to the existence of a trinity.

Like many have said, it’s not 1+1+1=3, it’s 1³ = 1x1x1=1

The area of a square is 1cm² even though it’s length and breadth is 1 cm.

The volume of a square is still 1cm³ even though it’s obvious that it has more dimensions.

Tell me how that is possible, unless you’re going to tell me that Mathematics is flawed too.

[benedict_x]

Way to go lil sis.

I smell of elderberries at maths so I couldnt come up with the equation.

[ayed]

Jis Jas:

"Human mind cannot comprehend the scope of God's power. What seems impossible by the human mind requires less than a thought by God to be reality.

A-OK.

"Is it better to dare to say "God cannot do that, it is impossible!"

A-Allah can do it but I disagree with you in this point because Allah impossible to be THREE characters .That is, He has never ever Incarnates in three different characters.

if we take it for granted that Allah(God) has only one child and sacrificed him to atone for the sins of mankind, and that this son was a god. If it was true that he was a god who was beaten, insulted and crucified, and died, then this doctrine contains elements of blasphemy because it accuses God of weakness and helplessness. Is God really incapable of forgiving the sins of all His servants with just one word? If He is Able to do all things (and the Christians do not dispute this fact), then why would He need to sacrifice His son in order to achieve the same thing? (Glorified and exalted be He far above what the wrongdoers say about Him!)

“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.” [al-An’aam – interpretation of the meaning]

An ordinary man would not accept anyone harming his child; he would come to his defence, and would never hand him over to an enemy who would insult him, let alone leave him to face the worst kind of death. If this is the attitude of a mere created being, what then of the Creator?

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Hermione:

put the equation aside and ,honestly, answer my questions:

1-who is the bravest of you having a child to kill him for the sake of some servants?

2- Who Has created you? Is He:

a-Allah(God)

b-Iesa(Jesus)

c-Holy spirit ?

Thank you .

[benedict_x]

"Allah can do it but I disagree with you in this point because Allah impossible to be THREE characters .That is, He has never ever Incarnates in three different characters."

A. With God all things are possible. This would be like the zillionth time anyone has said this. You have yet to reply to my post.

"if we take it for granted that Allah(God) has only one child and sacrificed him to atone for the sins of mankind, and that this son was a god. If it was true that he was a god who was beaten, insulted and crucified, and died, then this doctrine contains elements of blasphemy because it accuses God of weakness and helplessness. Is God really incapable of forgiving the sins of all His servants with just one word? If He is Able to do all things (and the Christians do not dispute this fact), then why would He need to sacrifice His son in order to achieve the same thing? (Glorified and exalted be He far above what the wrongdoers say about Him!)"

A. And there you go again taking potshots at Jesus's humanity and questioning God and His ways.

"Hermione:

put the equation aside and ,honestly, answer my questions:

1-who is the bravest of you having a child to kill him for the sake of some servants?

2- Who Has created you? Is He:

a-Allah(God)

b-Iesa(Jesus)

c-Holy spirit ?

Thank you"

A. I'll answer this one.

1. Read my post.

2. All three of them. Beacsue they are ONE God

You can't just choose which post to answer and which post to not. We have given very logical answers to your questions. Its up to you to decide if you'll open your mind up and accept them or bring us on a merry go round of questions. If its the later then I shall not waste my time trying to chase you while you bunny hop questions.

Edited July 29, 2003 by benedict_x