I Love Jesus

[Winchester]

Well played, hot stuff.

[Dave]

And let's not forget that "spiritual" does NOT mean "symbolic!" Besides, in that language, the phrases "eat one's body" and "drink one's blood," if taken in a figurative manner, mean "to slander." So would we be saved by slandering Jesus? Of course not! Those disciples left Jesus because they knew He was speaking literally, and He never did call them back and say, "Hey guys, I was speaking figuratively!" Also, note that these people were DISCIPLES. They had ALREADY accepted Christ and His teachings up until that point. So "eating and drinking Jesus' Body and Blood" couldn't possibly refer to believing in Jesus.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Dave

[Jaime]

[quote name='Dave' post='1059153' date='Sep 8 2006, 03:38 PM']
And let's not forget that "spiritual" does NOT mean "symbolic!"
[/quote]

Oh Dave, you're always seeing the moves 4 steps ahead.

[Budge]

[quote]From a contextual standpoint, you're literally crossing over hundreds of years and culture. Your assumption is that words and their interpretations won't change over the course of that time. And you'd be wrong. There are dozens of examples of how words evolve in the course of Old Testament to New[/quote]

Dont you realize that the Old Testament interlocks with the New.?
You interpret the Bible using other verses. That is how you translate the Bible.

It is ONE book that does connect together, not a mishmash as you see it.

[stbernardLT]

At least we don't put half verses together and break up paragraphs too get a point across. SHAMEFUL.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Bude I suggest you do a study of Levitical law regarding sacrifice, and blood. You will find many rules, and punishments for the misuse of blood ect. Blood was something very serious. For Jesus to refer to this extreme truth of the Old Testament in just a half hazzard symbolic way would be gravely wrong. If you want I have written an essay on it. Privat Message me and I will send you a copy.

[Akalyte]

Hi. I'm back and I love Jesus.


Here eat this:


John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten. Look what He says.

John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times "I AM the bread from heaven." It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.

John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this "new" bread which must be consumed.

John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.

John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word "phago" nine times. "Phago" literally means "to eat" or "physically consume." Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus' literal usage of "eat." So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as "trogo," which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where "trogo" is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus' words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says "For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed." This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus' flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as "sarx." "Sarx" means flesh (not "soma" which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where "sarx" means flesh. It is always literal.

John 6:55 - further, the phrases "real" food and "real" drink use the word "alethes." "Alethes" means "really" or "truly," and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus' flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

[Anomaly]

Humor me.
Did you get the above online? From where?

[Akalyte]

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-IIb"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucha...l#eucharist-IIb[/url]

[Budge]

[quote]Bude I suggest you do a study of Levitical law regarding sacrifice, and blood. You will find many rules, and punishments for the misuse of blood ect. Blood was something very serious. For Jesus to refer to this extreme truth of the Old Testament in just a half hazzard symbolic way would be gravely wrong. If you want I have written an essay on it. Privat Message me and I will send you a copy.[/quote]

God would never go against His own commandments and have folks drink BLOOD literally.

[quote]Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, [size=4]that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.[/size]
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
[/quote]

Reread this one again folks.
[size=4]Joh 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven: [size=5]not as your fathers did eat manna[/size], and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Not as your fathers did eat manna...ie dont eat everyday. No repeats necessary over and over.

Compare..

The Catholic Church teaches that the EUCHARIST cleanses people from sin when the BIble teaches something else, keep reading..

[quote]"For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time [u]cleansing us from past sins [/u]and preserving us from future sins:" Pg. 351, #1393[/quote]

[quote]"By the same charity that it enkindles in us, [u]the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins."[/u] Pg. 352, #1395 [/quote]

The Bible teaches it is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins..

[size=4]"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5 [/size]

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Yeah, the Blood of Jesus does wash away our sins... the Blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. The Most Holy Eucharist IS the Body, Blood, Soul, & Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Secondly, Jesus meant "not as your fathers did" because they DIED... keep reading... "he who eats THIS bread will live forever" which bread? John 6:50 Jesus points to HIMSELF and says "THIS is the bread"

[Budge]

Yes Jesus is the bread of Life, He went to the cross and died for sinners, so that we may have eternal life.

He isnt sliced and diced into a million wafers, but He is in heaven...resurrected.

[quote] the Blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. [/quote]

How does this equate with the Catholic Eucharist being called a

BLOODLESS SACRIFICE?

[Winchester]

The "wafers" are neither sliced nor diced.

Is it called a "BLOODLESS SACRIFICE?"

Did the editor of the CCC mis the caps lock being on?

[zunshynn]

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1058818' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:50 PM']
Budge, do you think Mother Teresa was trying to work her way into Heaven? Do you think she didn't know Jesus? Are you certain the many Catholics who have died for Jesus the past 2000 years didn't know Him?

What more could Jesus have possibly said in John chapter 6 for you to believe that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink, and that you must eat it to have life within you?

What was the point of the last supper if it was not our partaking in the covenant? When else was Jesus ever so wishy-washy as to command us to eat some bread and grape juice and just think, oh yeah Jesus really was great? I mean come on, that's pretty wimpy for a guy like Jesus. What's the point if it doesn't actually mean anything. Jesus just doesn't command us to do things for appearance sake. It has to mean something.

In the old covenant anyone who refused to partake of the sacrificial lamb cut himself off from the covenant with God. The last supper is the fulfillment of the passover, and Jesus is the lamb. To call Him a liar and say I will not partake of this passover is to say you don't want the unity with Him that the new covenant offers.
[/quote]


Budgie, you never actually answered my questions. You think you could now? I was really looking forward to hearing what you said.

You also haven't shown how it's plainly meant to be read in a symbolic context. The verses you talked about about eating scrolls was in a completely different context.

You completely ignore chunks of the Bread of Life discourse. You'd have to to come up with your interpretations, of course. But I thought we were going to read things in context?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058992' date='Sep 8 2006, 07:38 AM']
Catholics use the same verses over and over.

You know after I became a Christian, I realized how proof texting and taking things out of the Bible out of context was a bad idea. Christians learn to take one verse and find others to match it and interpret it. One can find amazing things in the Bible that way. I learned about the "Captain of the Hosts" last night and who that truly is. God has done amazing things in showing me His Word.

Im going to post a study I did on my board, that outlines what I believe about John 6 and how one is to truly receive Jesus Christ.
**************************
In the Catholic Church no one is taught they have to be saved in Christ. Even Commitment to Christ is seen as mostly done through sacraments.

Catholics dont know the real meaning of this:
"I am the living bread ([b]JESUS IS THE LIVING BREAD[/b]) which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." () The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, [b]WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS-HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS[/b]saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" ([b]THESE JEWS DIDNT UNDERSTAND AND CERTAINLY DIDNT KNOW THAT CHRIST WOULD GOING TO THE CROSS[/b]) Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." (John 6:51-55).

Jesus is definitely speaking in spiritual terms.

[size=4]Does this verse mean someone is actually supposed to go eat paper and ink?[/size]
[font="Arial Black"]
Moreover He said to me, "Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll (Ezekiel 3:1, 2).[/font]

Think on this one...EAT THE WORD.

Who is THE WORD...but Jesus.

These are deep spiritual things.
**************************
[size=4]
Does this verse mean that God will actually make someone eat a tree risking splinters?[/size]

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;[font="Arial Black"] To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life[/font], which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

Psa 127:2 [It is] vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: [for] so he giveth his beloved sleep.
[font="Arial Black"]
EATING HAS A SPIRITUAL MEANING IN THE BIBLE!!!!! There are times it means literally eating but many many times it means SPIRITUAL EATING.[/font]
www.blueletterbible.org/t...-7724.html

Jesus says this later during loaves and fishes miracle..."you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. [size=5]Do not labor for food which perishes, but for food which endures to everlasting life." (HE IS THAT FOOD NOT THE EUCHARIST WAFER)[/size]

The true meaning of *eating* of the flesh and blood of Jesus is SPIRITUAL!

DO NOT LABOR FOR FOOD {wafers} that PERISHES.
[/quote]
And protestants ignore or "explain away" the same verses repeatedly.

When many left Him over this "hard teaching," Christ did not call them back to explain how it was all "spiritual" or mere metaphor. He asked if His Apostles would also leave Him. And in the Gospels, Christ often explained to His disicples the meaning of parables they had trouble understanding.
There is nothing in this passage to indicate that this was a parable or metaphor.

"[b]For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."[/b]
Christ never spoke this way about parables or metaphors.

It's really kind of amusing (yet sad) how "Bible Christians" attempt to "explain away" those passages of Scripture which go against the dogmas of their own particular denomination.

Why are we to trust your particular "interpretation" over that handed down from the Apostles, as evidenced by the words of the Church fathers?

St. Paul himself says in 1 Corinthians 11:27-29:
[quote]Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.* For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.[/quote]
Pretty strong language if this was only metaphor! (Or had Paul already fallen into Romish Superstition?)