Did Peter's Betrayal Of Christ Make Him Not An Apostle?

[Winchester]

I believe there are senses of the word.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1059080' date='Sep 8 2006, 12:58 PM']
I believe there are senses of the word.
[/quote]
EXACTLY!
I guess it takes someone with an avatar of a person who weilds a sword for a living to cut through the fog.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1059079' date='Sep 8 2006, 01:56 PM']Are you just being obtuse, or what? The Catholic Church defines 'Church' as including people, but you drone on ignoring that and calling the people, 'Her children'.

Simple question. Are the people in the "Church", lay and clerical, part of the Church or not?[/quote]
Yes, you are precisely right. Human beings are PART of the Church, but they are not THE Church.

This is why it is erroneous to say that the sins of the People of God are those of the Church, because the Church is a Divine person, and a Divine person (Christ) cannot sin.

[Budge]

Why if those Popes, bishops, priests and Cardinals are NOT the CHURCH, then I dont need them.

They are NOT the CHURCH, after all...

you admit this yourself..


[quote]Human beings are PART of the Church, but they are not THE Church.

[/quote]



[mod]Negative Criticism of Other Religions
A post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue.[/mod]

Edited September 8, 2006 by Lil Red

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059092' date='Sep 8 2006, 03:17 PM']
Why if those Popes, bishops, priests and Cardinals are NOT the CHURCH, then I dont need them.

They are NOT the CHURCH, after all...

you admit this yourself..


[mod]Negative Criticism of Other Religions
A post or comment that negatively criticizes (as opposed to constructively criticizes) a different religion in a way that is harmful to open ecumenical dialogue.[/mod]
[/quote]

They're part of the Church that Christ founded, and thus you DO need them. And yet you've separated yourself from Christ's Church!

And how dare you call the Church hierarchy "terminally confused," "mostly homosexual," and "sexually ambivalent?" Do you know any of these bishops personally?

Edited September 8, 2006 by Lil Red

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Dave' post='1059150' date='Sep 8 2006, 02:35 PM']
They're part of the Church that Christ founded, and thus you DO need them. And yet you've separated yourself from Christ's Church!

And how dare you call the Church hierarchy "terminally confused," "mostly homosexual," and "sexually ambivalent?" Do you know any of these bishops personally?
[/quote]Some I know, other's I've read about in the police blotter section of the paper.
They are humans with power and ability to control and influence who becomes clergy, who remains clergy, how the clergy is trained, etc.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1059088' date='Sep 8 2006, 01:14 PM']
Yes, you are precisely right. Human beings are PART of the Church, but they are not THE Church.

This is why it is erroneous to say that the sins of the People of God are those of the Church, because the Church is a Divine person, and a Divine person (Christ) cannot sin.
[/quote]While here on earth, I would like to know when the Church is not the Church represented by imperfect people?
Has a pope ever apologized on behalf of the Church?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1059270' date='Sep 8 2006, 07:16 PM']While here on earth, I would like to know when the Church is not the Church represented by imperfect people?
Has a pope ever apologized on behalf of the Church?
[/quote]
Pope John Paul II extended his apologies on behalf of the Church for the sins of her children. Not for the sins of the Church, because the Church is sinless.

The Church is always represented by imperfect people. The key word being "represented". A representative acts on behalf of another PERSON, in this case, the Divine person that is the Mystical Body of Christ. Those representatives can sin, but the person they represent, the Church, cannot.

[Era Might]

Here's a relevant document, for reference:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html#Historical%20Judgement%20and%20Theological%20Judgement"][u]Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Faults of the Past[/u][/url]

[quote]From a theological point of view, Vatican II distinguishes between the indefectible fidelity of the Church and the weaknesses of her members, clergy or laity, yesterday and today, and therefore, between the Bride of Christ "with neither blemish nor wrinkle...holy and immaculate" (cf. Eph 5:27), and her children, pardoned sinners, called to permanent metanoia, to renewal in the Holy Spirit. "The Church, embracing sinners in her bosom, is at the same time holy and always in need of purification and incessantly pursues the path of penance and renewal."

...

Because of her responsibility to Truth, the Church "cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without encouraging her children to purify themselves, through repentance, of past errors and instances of infidelity, inconsistency and slowness to act. Acknowledging the weaknesses of the past is an act of honesty and courage..."[/quote]

Edited September 8, 2006 by Era Might

[Budge]

[font="Georgia"]Re 18:7
[u]How much she hath glorified herself,[/u] and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.[/font]

The Catholic Church claims of perfection despite its very dark history remind me of this verse.

[Winchester]

I don't think the Roman Rite alone has had bad guys. Surely the other Rites had problems.

I forgot how devoted you are to the Ukrainian Rite.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058988' date='Sep 8 2006, 07:27 AM']
Would you have followed Judas after he sold Jesus out for the 30 pieces of silver and NEVER repented?

Christians are to hold their Christian leaders to a standard.

If I went to my Baptist church, and my preacher started preaching things against the Bible--interfaith, and anythying else, and refuse to repent after exortations from the deacons and church bodies, he would be removed. If he wasnt removed and somehow retained power over the church, no one should keep him as a pastor anymore.

This isnt happening in the Catholic Church, you poor folks are stuck with false leaders, and even Catholics {like Roman Catholic Faithful} admit that things have gotten more and more rotten. Jesus never intended for people to remain under wolves. He warned of them for a reason. Your church heirarchy formed many traditions of your church that are not Biblical to retain their own power.

Some of you think I am terrible to point out a few sinners, the problem with your clergy, it has stepped way beyond the point of a few sinners. There isnt ONE living bishop or Cardinal except in the Trad movement that has spoken AGAINST interfaithism and other deceptions within your church. NOT one bishop in the entire world went against the rules from the top, regarding the sex scandals--ie go against command to keep silent.

I will not follow men...and the apostles preached we should obey God rather then men, that teach false doctrines, and interfaithism. Jesus preached judged by the fruits.

The Catholic Church keeps its power over you by wrongly telling you that they are the ONE TRUE CHURCH. The one true church is all believers born again in Jesus Christ. I feel sorry for Catholics because more and more they know their leadership is corrupt and becoming more and mroe rotten by the minute, and I dont know how many Catholic blogs, I go to where Catholics wring their hands about the horribleness and false teachings of many of their Cardinals, bishops and Popes, sadly many of you have been indoctrinated into thinking the Vatican holds a monopoly on Christ's church which it does not.

That is why in Revelation, there are those warnings about a counterfeit church.

Many of you would make great Christians outside the bondage of Rome.
[/quote]
Judas remained one of the Twelve, even after he had chosen to betray Christ. Christ knew what Judas what was up to, yet He did not immmediately expell Judas from the Apostles after he had made this decision.

Since you claim to base to base everything on Scripture, you might want to use Scripture as your authority, rather than what your baptist church does.

The Parable of the Wheat ande Cockle comes to mind. (Matt. 13:24-30)
[quote]Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seed in his field. But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way. And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. And the servants of the good man of the house coming said to him. "Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? Whence then hath it cockle?" And he said to them: "An enemy hath done this." [b]And the servants said to him: "Wilt thou that we go and gather it up?" And he said: "No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it." Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn[/b][/quote]

Christ never promised that all members of His Church on earth would be sinless. (And I have yet to see evidence that Baptists are without sin.)

[Budge]

[quote]Christ never promised that all members of His Church on earth would be sinless. (And I have yet to see evidence that Baptists are without sin.)[/quote]

The Bible teaches that reprobates and false preachers are to be removed from the church body...

why doesnt the Catholic church follow this? Instead they have the corrupt and reprobate running the show.


1Cr 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

[Winchester]

We don't ever kick them out, you're absolutely right. We should learn from all the non-Catholic Churches, since they never have scandals and are perfect.

There's a big movement in the Church to do that whole becoming perfect thing, but the Cardinals are too busy taking junkets to Vegas and putting subliminal donation requests on EWTN.

[Winchester]

We don't ever kick them out, you're absolutely right. We should learn from all the non-Catholic Churches, since they never have scandals and are perfect.

There's a big movement in the Church to do that whole becoming perfect thing, but the Cardinals are too busy taking junkets to Vegas and putting subliminal donation requests on EWTN.