Did Peter's Betrayal Of Christ Make Him Not An Apostle?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1058546' date='Sep 7 2006, 03:28 PM']
The Church is one flesh with its bridegroom, who happens to be the Son of God. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. This is why, when Our Lord appears to St. Paul in Acts, he asks him, "Why are you persecuting me"? He makes no distinction between himself and his Church, and identifies himself as his Church. The Body of Christ cannot be sinful. In the same way that Christ is eternal yet human, so his Church is spotless but made up of sinners.
[/quote]
**buzzer**
The Church has two natures, not one, just as Jesus has a human and divine nature. Immortal, but able to be crucified. All powerful, but subject to the evil of others. Sinless, but capable of sin.

[Era Might]

The Church, like Christ, has two natures, but she is one Divine person, because her soul is God himself, the Holy Spirit. A nature cannot sin; only a person can, and this is why the Church is sinless. The Church is made up of sinners, but the Mystical Body of Christ is a sinless and perfect society, because she has God himself as her author.

[Budge]

Peter repented.

When are your Popes, Cardinals and rest going to repent?

Some died never doing so.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Budge

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1058555' date='Sep 7 2006, 03:38 PM']
The Church, like Christ, has two natures, but she is one Divine person, because her soul is God himself, the Holy Spirit. A nature cannot sin; only a person can, and this is why the Church is sinless. The Church is made up of sinners, but the Mystical Body of Christ is a sinless and perfect society, because she has God himself as her author.
[/quote]
Dude. You mean your 'mythical' Body of Christ is a perfect society here on earth. Like you said, the Church includes people. People are sinners, the Church errs and sins.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058834' date='Sep 7 2006, 09:06 PM']
Dude. You mean your 'mythical' Body of Christ is a perfect society here on earth. Like you said, the Church includes people. People are sinners, the Church errs and sins.
[/quote]

Dude. By your logic, Jesus would not be able to establish the Church that he DID establish in Mt 16:17-19

Why are you calling Jesus a liar? Are you saying he is incapable of doing something he did? Or did we Catholics smudge that part of the Bible? Or maybe Jesus was kidding? Pick one of those options, or make one up...either way, your logic is flawed.

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058717' date='Sep 7 2006, 10:06 PM']
Peter repented.

When are your Popes, Cardinals and rest going to repent?

Some died never doing so.
[/quote]

To our knowledge, Judas never repented either. Your point?

[Aloysius]

"the Church" is made up solely of the good and sinless parts of her members as they make up the body of Christ. the sinful parts of her members are not part of "the Church". The Church itself is a concept, actualized in a real flesh and blood teaching authority and by real flesh and blood priests and laity; all striving towards sainthood. their sainthood makes them members of the Church, their sinfullness hinders their communion with this Church.

insomuch as I am a sinner, I am not joined to the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church.

insomuch as I have faith and do good, I am united to the Church.

this is not properly the exact same distinction made between Christ's humanity and divinity; for Christ's humanity is perfect and Christ's divinity is perfect. The Body of Christ's human memers are perfect insofar as they are members (their imperfections are hindrances to their membership) and the Body of Christ's Divinity is also perfect... but sociologically speaking the human component of the human institution of the catholic church is imperfect and full of sinners.

If you speak theologically, then yes the Church is absolutely perfect and spotless. If you do not view the Church with this theological ecclesiastical definition, but merely view it from an objective sociological point of view, then anomaly is correct and it does seem nonsensical. But that is because it's not a proof to say that the Church is perfect, it is a teaching and encompassed in it is a precise definition of what the Church itself really is: the communion of the sainthood of the saints, the hospital which is ridding its members of what hinders their membership in it, having joined to it no sin and being completely spotless washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

[b]to budge[/b]

the real question: was St. Peter still an apostle during the time between his denial of Christ and his repentence?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058717' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:06 PM']
Peter repented.

When are your Popes, Cardinals and rest going to repent?

Some died never doing so.
[/quote]


Ok you must know the mind of God, knowing who has repented and who has not, could only come from God. So please, tell us which popes and cardinals have not repented? And tell us when did God tell you this... because He is the only one who would know such information.

Edited September 8, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1058888' date='Sep 7 2006, 11:07 PM']
Dude. By your logic, Jesus would not be able to establish the Church that he DID establish in Mt 16:17-19

Why are you calling Jesus a liar? Are you saying he is incapable of doing something he did? Or did we Catholics smudge that part of the Bible? Or maybe Jesus was kidding? Pick one of those options, or make one up...either way, your logic is flawed.
[/quote]What? Calling Jesus a liar?
Where did Jesus say He was going to establish a Perfect and Sin Free Church on earth prior to His return?
Establish a Church, yes. Establish the Church with extreme characteristics thay you ascribe? Nonsense. Didn't say that. It's a convoluted Myth.

To further edify, Mt 16:17-19 "17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. "

Only by convoluted and tortured interpretation can 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it' be construed as 'perfect and sinless'. It's been said many times here, infallibility is not impeccablility. The Church can, has, and will sin many times. Per Catholic's own theology, the 'Church' is only infallible with it purposely speaks with the intent of being infallible. Other than that, it is also subject the the whims and circumstances of men, their wills, and their imperfect actions.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Anomaly

[Budge]

[quote]To our knowledge, Judas never repented either. Your point?[/quote]

Would you have followed Judas after he sold Jesus out for the 30 pieces of silver and NEVER repented?

Christians are to hold their Christian leaders to a standard.

If I went to my Baptist church, and my preacher started preaching things against the Bible--interfaith, and anythying else, and refuse to repent after exortations from the deacons and church bodies, he would be removed. If he wasnt removed and somehow retained power over the church, no one should keep him as a pastor anymore.

This isnt happening in the Catholic Church, you poor folks are stuck with false leaders, and even Catholics {like Roman Catholic Faithful} admit that things have gotten more and more rotten. Jesus never intended for people to remain under wolves. He warned of them for a reason. Your church heirarchy formed many traditions of your church that are not Biblical to retain their own power.

Some of you think I am terrible to point out a few sinners, the problem with your clergy, it has stepped way beyond the point of a few sinners. There isnt ONE living bishop or Cardinal except in the Trad movement that has spoken AGAINST interfaithism and other deceptions within your church. NOT one bishop in the entire world went against the rules from the top, regarding the sex scandals--ie go against command to keep silent.

I will not follow men...and the apostles preached we should obey God rather then men, that teach false doctrines, and interfaithism. Jesus preached judged by the fruits.

The Catholic Church keeps its power over you by wrongly telling you that they are the ONE TRUE CHURCH. The one true church is all believers born again in Jesus Christ. I feel sorry for Catholics because more and more they know their leadership is corrupt and becoming more and mroe rotten by the minute, and I dont know how many Catholic blogs, I go to where Catholics wring their hands about the horribleness and false teachings of many of their Cardinals, bishops and Popes, sadly many of you have been indoctrinated into thinking the Vatican holds a monopoly on Christ's church which it does not.

That is why in Revelation, there are those warnings about a counterfeit church.

Many of you would make great Christians outside the bondage of Rome.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058834' date='Sep 7 2006, 11:06 PM']
Dude. You mean your 'mythical' Body of Christ is a perfect society here on earth. Like you said, the Church includes people. People are sinners, the Church errs and sins.
[/quote]
What I said is that the Church is a perfect society. In other words, she contains everything in herself which is necessary for her mission.

The Church can neither err nor sin, because "the Church" is the Mystical Body of Christ. The Pope is not the Mystical Body of Christ. Your local parish is not the Mystical Body of Christ. Only "the Church", as a supernatural communion infused with life by the Holy Spirit, is the spotless Bride of Christ.

[Winchester]

Budge,
How in the bloody Hell do you know who has and has not repented?

Of course, that's off the point. It's yet another red herring, but I'll address it since it stinks so mightily, your apparent delusion that you know the hearts of men.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1059021' date='Sep 8 2006, 10:57 AM']
What I said is that the Church is a perfect society. In other words, she contains everything in herself which is necessary for her mission.

The Church can neither err nor sin, because "the Church" is the Mystical Body of Christ. The Pope is not the Mystical Body of Christ. Your local parish is not the Mystical Body of Christ. Only "the Church", as a supernatural communion infused with life by the Holy Spirit, is the spotless Bride of Christ.
[/quote]That is just silly man made fairy tales and completely unsupportable. The Catholic Church can and does have authority because of God's grace. The CC does not have sole possesion of, or a monopoly on grace or holiness. Claims and actions as if it does are without merit. Elevating the temporal Catholic Church to a completely Divine status is flat out wrong. Your very definitions are at odds with the Church's own defintions of what the 'Mystical Body of Christ' is.

[quote]The analogy borne by any society of men to an organism is sufficiently manifest. In every society the constituent individuals are united, as are also the members of a body, to effect a common end; while the parts they severally play correspond to the functions of the bodily organs. They form a moral unity. This, of course, is true of the Church, but the Church has also a unity of a higher order; it is not merely a moral but a mystical body. This truth, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, all its members being guided and directed by Christ the head, is set forth by St. Paul in various passages, more especially in Ephesians 4:4-13 (cf. John 15:5-8). The doctrine may be summarized as follows:


The members of the Church are bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the sacraments (ibid., 5). Christ is the centre and source of life to Whom all are united, and Who endows each one with gifts fitting him for his position in the body (ibid., 7-12). These graces, through which each is equipped for his work, form it into an organized whole, whose parts are knit together as though by a system of ligaments and joints (ibid., 16; Colossians 2:19).
Through them, too, the Church has its growth and increase, growing in extension as it spreads through the world, and intensively as the individual Christian develops in himself the likeness of Christ (ibid., 13-15).
In virtue of this union the Church is the fulness or complement (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23). It forms one whole with Him; and the Apostle even speaks of the Church as "Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12).
This union between head and members is conserved and nourished by the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament our incorporation into the Body of Christ is alike outwardly symbolized and inwardly actualized; "We being many are one bread, one body; for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17).
[/quote]
Look it up. The Church includes imperfect and sinful persons, so parts of it are, was, and will be imperfect and sinful. To say otherwise is elevating a 'religion' to 'godlike' status. It's legalistic and amoral and is contradictory to the principle of God's grace being offered to all.
Your claims that the Church is perfect and sinless then falls into the contradictory reality of the Church declaring Discipline as human decree. There would be no Discipline, only further statements of continuing Divine Revalation.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Anomaly

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1059059' date='Sep 8 2006, 01:38 PM']That is just silly man made fairy tales and completely unsupportable. The Catholic Church can and does have authority because of God's grace. The CC does not have sole possesion of, or a monopoly on grace or holiness. Claims and actions as if it does are without merit. Elevating the temporal Catholic Church to a completely Divine status is flat out wrong. Your very definitions are at odds with the Church's own defintions of what the 'Mystical Body of Christ' is.[/quote]
The Church is always something greater than those who take care of her temporal affairs. What we see here on earth is not the Church, but a group of people who help make up the Church. Their sins can never be said to be those of the Church because they do not constitute the person of the Church, which is a Divine and Mystical reality with Christ as its head, and the Holy Spirit as its life.

Again, a nature cannot sin. If you want to compare the Church militant to the "human" nature of Christ, that's fine, but understand that a nature cannot sin, only a person can sin, and the person of the Church is Christ. The Church is just his Mystical Body; he is its head. To say that "the Church" has sinned or erred is to say that Christ himself has sinned and erred. Rather, the Church does not sin and err, but her children do.

[quote]The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to contemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest.

O humility! O sublimity! Both tabernacle of cedar and sanctuary of God; earthly dwelling and celestial palace; house of clay and royal hall; body of death and temple of light; and at last both object of scorn to the proud and bride of Christ! She is black but beautiful, O daughters of Jerusalem, for even if the labor and pain of her long exile may have discolored her, yet heaven's beauty has adorned her.

--Catechism of the Catholic Church, #771[/quote]

[Anomaly]

Are you just being obtuse, or what? The Catholic Church defines 'Church' as including people, but you drone on ignoring that and calling the people, 'Her children'.

Simple question. Are the people in the "Church", lay and clerical, part of the Church or not?