Another View - Apostolic Succession

[Bruce S]

Technically Bruce, you are a Catholic. Just a very bad one!

Agreed, a *small c* catholic great one, *large C* Catholic lousy one.

The Universal catholic church of God incarnate, founded by Jesus Christ is not a single denomination, as WE see it, of course, that is a minority opinion on this forum, grin.

[Paladin D]

Agreed, a *small c* catholic great one, *large C* Catholic lousy one.

The Universal catholic church of God incarnate, founded by Jesus Christ is not a single denomination, as WE see it, of course, that is a minority opinion on this forum, grin.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

[Bruce S]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

Every OUTSIDE listing agency showing where one can attend church lists it as such, every poll lists it as such, outside OF the Catholic Church it is, perhaps INSIDE it is not, but that is NOT a "slam" just using generally accepted definitions, used be the entire world.

Sorry if that offends, but you MUST understand, that you don't represent everyone, and that THIS FORUM, if not the rest of the site, is for others outside of your system to interact.

We do, and we note that we are different, and if we thought you WERE the UNIVERSAL ONLY Christian way, we would not be interacting on this forum, but in the other forums, FOR those of the Catholic Church way, right, or not?

[Paladin D]

Every OUTSIDE listing agency showing where one can attend church lists it as such, every poll lists it as such, outside OF the Catholic Church it is, perhaps INSIDE it is not, but that is NOT a "slam" just using generally accepted definitions, used be the entire world.

Sorry if that offends, but you MUST understand, that you don't represent everyone, and that THIS FORUM, if not the rest of the site, is for others outside of your system to interact.

We do, and we note that we are different, and if we thought you WERE the UNIVERSAL ONLY Christian way, we would not be interacting on this forum, but in the other forums, FOR those of the Catholic Church way, right, or not?

Before the split(s), there were no denominations. But when they came to pass, the Catholic Church was forced under the label of denomination.

Secular sources also claim that Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are Christian denominations sometimes even claiming them Christian cults.

[Bruce S]

Before the split(s), there were no denominations. But when they came to pass, the Catholic Church was forced under the label of denomination.

Yes there were. The Jerusalem chuch HATED and reviled those Gentiles who joined without accepting all the rites and mutilations and dietary restrictions of Judaism.

There were "denominational" fights from day one.

Don't forget that one. Of course, they sort of, resolved it, temporarily, but not really, as the Jewish factions were consumed in the revolts of 66-70, with most of them being slaughtered or sold into slavery, before that revolt the Gentile factions moved to Pella [sp?] and since they were the ones who survived they became the dominant faction. From THAT faction, the modern church continued to evolve.

So, the "fiction" that the early church was a totally unified entity, with no factional divisions is just plain revisionist history.

[Bruce S]

Secular sources also claim that Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are Christian denominations sometimes even claiming them Christian cults.

I *might add* that MOST of the fundamentalist denominations consider the Roman Catholics a cult too, honest. I don't. But they do.

I get 'out a little' so I'm MUCH more open minded about the FAVORABLE AND GOOD things the Catholic Church has to offer, some of the finest people around, a wonderful, rich history, and some quirks too, hey, that is how it is to me, good and bad.

BUT, and PLEASE understand this one, on other boards, in my church, in my travels .... I defend Catholics all the time from the erroneous charge of YOU being a Cult.

Sorry to have to say that, honestly, it is an UNFAIR charge, things like Whore of Babylon, Papist, and such ARE leveled all the time.

Now, dissecting things further.

Mormons are VERY similar to Catholics in debate, honest, I do some pretty good work on Mormon boards, they, like you, have a unified belief system, it is one that uses Tradition, Magisterium, Apostlic succesion, and extra biblical foundations. Do I think they are right, heck no, they are so far out in left field that calling them Christians is a joke. BUT...

They THINK IDENTICALLY to the people I'm TRYING to talk with here. There, you only get a repackaged "truth as told" interaction. They never, ever, concede a single point, ever. Does that remind you of any threads weve TRIED to interact on? They, like the Catholic Church claim absolute truth, they have a Priesthood, sacramental system with claims of priestly powers.

They have some interaction with the dead that are so similar that you really need to go there and try some discussions...

NOW they are dead wrong, I'm NOT defending one single solitary claim of Mormonism [with the one exception of morality, there they have us all beat] but noting the mindset, the way they approach debate, and interaction.

AND....

They have a repository of proof texts the rival of anything on this site in other forums, EVERY potential debating question has a pre-written, approved, church answer, and they toss them up in lieu of interaction, something that happens too frequently here.

Love you guys, honest, wouldn't spend as much time as I have here if I didn't, I just get "out more" than you do, and play in the other ponds to sharpen my thinking and see what others say, do , and believe.

Try it. Fun actually.

[jasJis]

To be perfectly honest. Only those who don't belong would call any belief system a "denomination". If you fellowship in TRUTH with your neighbor, all others outside your fellowship are the denomination because they would either be accepting error or not accpeting all the TRUTH your fellowship holds.

The day you believe your religious system is just another 'denomination', is the day you better work on getting right with God. Seriously.

A denomination is what outsiders call a group of people who are doing the best they can, together, to share and help each other in acknowledgeing and growing in the grace of Truth. To the members, all else are denominations.

[Bruce S]

To be perfectly honest. Only those who don't belong would call any belief system a "denomination". If you fellowship in TRUTH with your neighbor, all others outside your fellowship are the denomination because they would either be accepting error or not accpeting all the TRUTH your fellowship holds.

Sorry that is so offensive to you. I'm IN a denomination, actually two of them by the way, and follow three other denominations daily.

It is a shorthand for a SECT within a larger body of belief, look it up. It is NOT a slander, only SEEN that way when one is faced with reality that others don't consider things from the same perspective.

Within the Roman church affilitiations...you have others that accept the primacy of Rome, you certainly don't consider them TOTALLY part of the Roman Catholic Church, yet they are in "fellowship" with the Catholic Church, so what are they...if not, "other denominations in fellowship?'}"

Even YOU have to admit that Anglicans who ACCEPT the Pope are NOT Roman Catholics, so are they missing the TRUTH then, if so, why do you ALLOW them to claim communion with you, if they are in "error" kick them out and severe ties.

Don't be so myopic.

When one is FAIR and looks internally at the plethora of Christian listings and you are a minority faction, within the culture you live in, you can hardly expect everyone to not notice that, do you?

Take off the blinders. My DENOMINATION is a shorthad for the affilitated body of believers within CHRISTIANITY, same with every other Christian, especially those who are a small portion in most of the South, and the Midwest and Central states.

Remember .... only 23% are Catholic, 67% or 2/3'rds are NOT.

[jasJis]

Remember .... only 23% are Catholic, 67% or 2/3'rds are NOT.

Other's errors do not define TRUTH.

I'm not overly concerned with being a member of the majority. I simply want to follow Christ and avail myself of all His Grace. Yes, there is comfort and security in a Flock, but it's the Sheperd. This sheep is smart enough to look around and consider how closelsy my fellows are following the Sheperd. But my main criteria is not the size of the Flock, the the proximity to the Shepherd. When you allow a gap to grow between you and the Shepherd, the safety in numbers isn't all what it's cracked up to be.

[Circle_Master]

I simply want to follow Christ and avail myself of all His Grace.

I follow Christ because he is worth it. Is there a command I am missing that commands us to seek grace? I am not in this for the benefits - I am in this because He has saved me and I owe Him everything I am and I would love the chance to be the best for Him that I could possibly be.

[jasJis]

I follow Christ because he is worth it.  Is there a command I am missing that commands us to seek grace?  I am not in this for the benefits - I am in this because He has saved me and I owe Him everything I am and I would love the chance to be the best for Him that I could possibly be.

Call it a command, or call it a prayer.

John 17:5-23 "I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one. 16 They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 17 Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. 19 And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. "

See 20. We are burdened with more than the knowledge we need to seek Grace to save ourselves. Jesus asks God to grace us so that others will believe in him through OUR word. Grace that speaks through us.

See 23. Jesus knows that it is a process that we are brought to perfection in Him. More grace than only Salvific grace. God's Glory and grace is not limited to our Salvation alone, He desires we are brought to perfection.

Circle. It very well be my personal shortcoming that I seem (and really am) self righteous. You aren't the first to tell me that. And, sadly, you probably won't be the last. I need grace. Lot's of it. I'm the clay on the potter's wheel. The potter isn't done with me yet.

Again, I see what we have in common. I too would love the chance to be the best for Him that I could possibly be. Jesus desires that for us and in His prayer, he asked God to grace others to help us.

Edited January 9, 2004 by jasJis

[Circle_Master]

Yes, Jesus asks for the grace to be given so that men might believe at our testimony. I agree that we are brought to perfect in Jesus, however at salvation I see us as perfect in God's eyes, and so no more grace is given - only discipline. Grace would be unmeritted favor, all unmeritted favor has been given, discipline to teach us to submit to His Holy Spirit is a result of our hardheadedness and our constant appeal to sin.

I am glad we agree we want to be the best possible for Christ. The second part of my paragraph is an understanding built off the supposition that we are depraved creatures and no good exists in us except for God. You already disagree with the presupposition so if we wanted to really get to the foundation we would have to debate depravity - which is pointless because you are on the presupposition I have no authority to interpret Scripture, so we would have to debate the authority of the Catholic Church, which has been done in many threads and that leads off into other threads on specific areas such as ex-cathedra, tradition, and, and, etc. etc. Not sure if we can conclude anything here.

[jasJis]

Dude. Can you just feel it?

So somethings are pointless to argue. Leave them till later. Let's talk about what we agree on and we'll both grow. We need the Holy Spirit to interpret Scripture. I don't think the Holy Spirit is going to lead you somewhere He won't lead me. All I'm saying is we got to Walk together. Being human and stuff, let's share what we both know as TRUE so we keep our bearings...