CatholicMonarchist3 Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Anomaly' post='1058859' date='Sep 8 2006, 12:35 AM'] Read a little Church history and see how it has changed. Nothing you posted shows it hasn't. The Church that existed when it decided the Canon of the Bible is not the temporal Church that exists now. Do you really expect me to believe that the Church then would tolerate pedophiles priests, gay priests, and Bishops who not only harbor them, but foster them? Do you really think the Church 1800 years ago would allow the majority of it's congregation to outright disbelieve what it calls the Source and Summit of Grace, the Eucharist? I may have fallen off a turnip truck, but I didn't land on my head. [/quote] Nothing you posted shows it has, my dear friend. And do you have proof of this? St. Jerome put in footnotes of Catholic Orthodoxy. ANd, yes, I do think the Church is filled with modernist and rotten Bishops. It's really a post Vatican II problem because of it's ambiguos documents. Benedict XVI has spoken out against gay priests, and yet they're probably still allowed into seminaries. It's the disobedience of the Bishops (especially the USCCB) that is causing problems, yet the Church is still teaching orthodoxy, even if most of the Church's leaders aren't. Fortunately, the Gates of Hell still have not prevailed. It seems like your main problems are with the post conciliar Church. *edit* usually, Ephibophile priests would be locked up in a monastery for their entire life. Then after Vatican II you have disobediant Bishops giving them safe harbor and redistributing them. Also, a great number might be infiltraitors trying to take down the Church (likely Free Masons) Edited September 8, 2006 by Alexwise the Hobbit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1058872' date='Sep 7 2006, 11:51 PM'] It's a truthful word to describe those who do not worship God, but worship Mohammad's idol. I use it all the time! [/quote] you are one confused little dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='Anomaly' post='1058859' date='Sep 7 2006, 11:35 PM']Do you really expect me to believe that the Church then would tolerate pedophiles priests, gay priests, and Bishops who not only harbor them, but foster them? Do you really think the Church 1800 years ago would allow the majority of it's congregation to outright disbelieve what it calls the Source and Summit of Grace, the Eucharist? I may have fallen off a turnip truck, but I didn't land on my head.[/quote] "The world awoke with groan to find itself Arian." --St. Jerome The Church has been through many trying times throughout its history, from within and from without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1059025' date='Sep 8 2006, 11:03 AM'] "The world awoke with groan to find itself Arian." --St. Jerome The Church has been through many trying times throughout its history, from within and from without. [/quote] Trying times from within the Church? But what about your claim the Catholic Church is 'perfect and sinless'? I don't follow your logic train. The Church is Christ and humans. Christ is perfect. Humans are not perfect. Humans act in the Church's name and perform real and effective roles in the Church. The Church is perfect. Wrong conclusion. Aspects of the Church may be perfect. The Church may have authority. But the Church does not always weild it's athority perfectly because of humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='Anomaly' post='1059066' date='Sep 8 2006, 01:46 PM']Trying times from within the Church? But what about your claim the Catholic Church is 'perfect and sinless'? I don't follow your logic train. The Church is Christ and humans. Christ is perfect. Humans are not perfect. Humans act in the Church's name and perform real and effective roles in the Church. The Church is perfect. Wrong conclusion. Aspects of the Church may be perfect. The Church may have authority. But the Church does not always weild it's athority perfectly because of humans.[/quote] Although it is possible for Christ to have two natures, he remains one Divine person. You can't be two persons. Only a person can will and act as an individual. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Which means that the Church is his body in the same way that our bodies belong to us. Our bodies only act because we have a rational soul to animate and inform it. A body cannot be said to do anything on its own, except as an agent of a person. This is why corpses don't make many decisions. Hence, when we speak of the Church, we speak of Christ as a person, and the his People as the Mystical Body. His Mystical Body is made up of many sinners, but, as explained above, a body is not an independent life of its own; only a person can act and will, and when it comes to the person of the Church, that person is Christ. To speak of the Church as a person, which it is, then it is erroneous and blasphemous to suggest that she can sin and err, because you would impute sin and error to God himself, who constitutes the "person" of the Church. The Church militant directs the temporal affairs of the Mystical Body, but the Church militant is not the Mystical Body of Christ, or "the" Church as such, but rather "part" of the Mystical Body of Christ. Her mission is subordinate to the metaphysical reality of "the" Church, and she can obscure or sin against the Church as a Mystical reality. However, to summarize my main point, it cannot be said that her foibles are those of the the Church proper, because the Church proper is a Divine person who can neither sin nor err. The Church proper is Christ the head and his Mystical Bride the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote]The Church proper is Christ the head and his Mystical Bride the body.[/quote] well then who needs the Vatican. You really dont. Look to Jesus Christ. LOOK UP to God. Mar 8:25 After that he put [his] hands again upon his eyes, and [size=5]made him look up[/size]: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='mariahLVzJP2' post='1057635' date='Sep 6 2006, 02:20 AM'] ditto I'd pray with anyone [/quote] pretty much the same for me. prayer is not the same as worship at all. Prayer is simply spiritual communication – this is a very basic Catholic teaching of simple Christian truth. so i would pray with most members of "Abrahamic" faiths - Jews, seperated Christian and yes, Muslims. even though i completely disagree with the twisted Islamic understanding of God; and as far as i understand it, i pretty much disagree with Islam on... [i]absolutely everything.[/i] In other words: [u]praying[/u] (NOT worshiping) with a Muslim... it seems no more criminal to me than voting along side a liberal Obviously worship is a very different matter – and I think many are being easily (and unnecessarily) confused with this distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) There's a difference between praying "with" someone in the sense that you have a common prayer, and praying "with" someone in the sense that you're each praying separately, but in the same area. Edited September 8, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1059085' date='Sep 8 2006, 01:06 PM'] Although it is possible for Christ to have two natures, he remains one Divine person. You can't be two persons. Only a person can will and act as an individual. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Which means that the Church is his body in the same way that our bodies belong to us. Our bodies only act because we have a rational soul to animate and inform it. A body cannot be said to do anything on its own, except as an agent of a person. This is why corpses don't make many decisions. Hence, when we speak of the Church, we speak of Christ as a person, and the his People as the Mystical Body. His Mystical Body is made up of many sinners, but, as explained above, a body is not an independent life of its own; only a person can act and will, and when it comes to the person of the Church, that person is Christ. To speak of the Church as a person, which it is, then it is erroneous and blasphemous to suggest that she can sin and err, because you would impute sin and error to God himself, who constitutes the "person" of the Church. The Church militant directs the temporal affairs of the Mystical Body, but the Church militant is not the Mystical Body of Christ, or "the" Church as such, but rather "part" of the Mystical Body of Christ. Her mission is subordinate to the metaphysical reality of "the" Church, and she can obscure or sin against the Church as a Mystical reality. However, to summarize my main point, it cannot be said that her foibles are those of the the Church proper, because the Church proper is a Divine person who can neither sin nor err. The Church proper is Christ the head and his Mystical Bride the body. [/quote]If you could put shoes on what you just wrote, it would win "So You Think You Can Dance" hands down. It's Catholics who are constantly mis-using the word 'Church' and misunderstand what and who in the Church is saying. This error is manipulated by people with good intentions and people with bad intentions, but with terrible results. The result is Catholics elevating their 'religion' to completely 'Divine' status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) Well, I've probably said all I can say on the subject. To quote the great Bill Belichick, "it is what it is". [quote]The Church is holy: the Most Holy God is her author; Christ, her bridegroom, gave himself up to make her holy; the Spirit of holiness gives her life. Since she still includes sinners, she is "the sinless one made up of sinners." Her holiness shines in the saints; in Mary she is already all-holy. --Catechism of the Catholic Church[/quote] Edited September 8, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote] In other words: praying (NOT worshiping) with a Muslim...[/quote] So youre in the mosque, the prayers on the loudspeaker to Allah... are you kneeling with your forehead to the prayer mat or not? How do you pray with a person of a false religion and NOT worship at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1059197' date='Sep 8 2006, 06:21 PM'] So youre in the mosque, the prayers on the loudspeaker to Allah... are you kneeling with your forehead to the prayer mat or not? How do you pray with a person of a false religion and NOT worship at the same time? [/quote] Nobody said anything about entering a mosque. I can stand next to muslim and ask for God to grant the world peace. I can stand next to a jew and ask for God to grant the world peace. In fact I can stand next to just about ANYBODY and have a conversation with God about peace on earth, goodwill to men. Why are you limiting yourself to your little group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 It's actually "Peace to men of good will" not "Peace on earth, good will to men". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 [quote]Nobody said anything about entering a mosque. I can stand next to muslim and ask for God to grant the world peace. I can stand next to a jew and ask for God to grant the world for peace. In fact I can stand next to just about ANYBODY and have a conversation with God about peace on earth, goodwill to men. Why are you limiting yourself to your little group?[/quote] Why you leaving out the witchdoctors, Vooduns, and UUs? The Popes have included them all. [img]http://www.religion-cults.com/pope/pope-african26.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 When's that from? And where? Yes, I think it's real, so don't try that horse manure again. Looks like a pretty cool hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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