Would U Pray With A Muslim...

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058506' date='Sep 7 2006, 03:16 PM']We got plenty of opinion. Some more thoughtful than others.
Where's the definitive Catholic answer?[/quote]
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2113:

[quote]Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.[/quote]
If you pray to a false God, you commit idolatry.

Muslims do not worship a false God:

[quote]We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection."

--Pope John Paul II

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM[/url][/quote]

However, interreligious prayer with non-Christians who worship the one, true God comes with dangers, and must be approached with caution, as explained by Pope Benedict XVI:

[quote]The prayers for peace in Assisi, called by John Paul II, are multireligious, as all participants pray at the same time but in different places.

In these cases, the participants "know that their way of understanding the divinity and, therefore, their way of addressing it, is so different that a common prayer would be a fiction, it would not be true," writes Cardinal Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

On the contrary, in interreligious prayers, people of diverse religious traditions pray together, he explains.

"Is it possible to do so in a truthful and honest way?" the author asks. He responds by saying that he seriously doubts it.

If such interreligious prayers are organized, however, they require three conditions, Cardinal Ratzinger stresses.

First, he says, it must be made clear that one is praying to the one, personal God; second, it must be established that what is being prayed for is not in contradiction to the Our Father; and third, it must be stressed that for Christians Jesus Christ is the sole redeemer of all people.

[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=41665"]http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=41665[/url][/quote]

See also Fr. Brian Harrison's article "Muslims Worship the One, True God":

[quote]Vatican Council II and Pope John Paul II have taught rightly that in spite of their disbelief in the Incarnation and the Trinity, Muslims cannot justly be classified as idolaters. Allah—nothing other than the Arabic word for God—cannot be equated with Baal, Zeus, Ashtaroth, Krishna, Aphrodite, and the other local, finite, false deities of pagan polytheists. The nature of Islam is more that of a heresy—an offshoot of Christianity and Judaism that retains the basic monotheistic concept of the one true Creator God. In short, although Muslim worship, which includes a flat denial of Christ’s divinity, is not in itself fitting, God-pleasing, or salvific in character, the object of that defective worship—that is, the Being toward whom it is directed—is nevertheless the true God, imperfectly understood, as distinct from a disguised demon or a nonexistent figure of myth or legend.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp[/url][/quote]

[musturde]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058159' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:12 PM']
They dont honor him if they beleive the Koran which directly DENIES him.
[/quote]

And yet they honor him as a prophet more than many Christians honor him as God. Could you answer the other question i asked please? Would you pray with a Catholic Budge?

[quote name='Budge' post='1058159' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:12 PM']

As for the reality of this, I dare you to go to your largest big city mosque, get up on stage and do a prayer where you pray directly to "Jesus Christ" Use the phrase My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and see what happens.
[/quote]

I dare you to do it at a Jewish Synagogue.

Edited September 7, 2006 by musturde

[Budge]

[quote]
And yet they honor him as a prophet more than many Christians honor him as God[/quote]

If you deny the divinity of Christ, you are antichrist by all scriptural tests.

No fooling around with that.

You all do Islamics a disservice not wanting to lift a finger to even give them a chance to escape from the bondage of Islam.

[quote] Would you pray with a Catholic Budge?[/quote]

No, I would not, unless they were about to do a prayer to Jesus Christ to be born again after hearing and accepting the gospel.

If they ask me to pray, Im going to say a prayer OUT LOUD, that they come out of the Catholic Church.

[Anomaly]

Typical. Most 'religious' people have created their denomination or hatred of another denomination as their real God.

The bible is not a weapon

[Mateo el Feo]

Without getting into this discussion, here's a little comment.
[quote name='Budge' post='1058684' date='Sep 7 2006, 09:08 PM']You all do Islamics a disservice...[/quote]Budge, Islamic is an adjective. Could you do us all a favor and not use the made-up term "Islamics", as if it were a noun? No person is called an "Islamic." It reflects a lack of education that you can't even use the proper term to name a Muslim. The only other possibility is that you use name-calling (like the pejorative term "Romanist") as an emotional alternative to presenting an argument based on reason.

[Budge]

Ive never used the term Romanist here.

Go through my posts, you wont see it in my own writing.

As for Muslims/Islamics...what are you my English teacher?

The English teachers better get out their rules too on all these folks...

[url="http://www.google.com/search?q=Islamics&hl=en&hs=jX9&lr=&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&start=0&sa=N"]ISLAMICS, ISLAMICs, ISLAMICS[/url]

What do you think of the term.. mohammedans?

Edited September 8, 2006 by Budge

[CatholicMonarchist3]

[quote]
Is failure to recognize tantamount to conscience rejection? From the Christian perspective, Muslims fail to worship the full understanding of a triune god, but a partial understanding of the triune god. They worship God the Father.[/quote]

That's the problem. We have to deal in absolutes. You're either worshipping God, or you're not. They partially worship God. if I partially drank, I'd eventually die of dehydration, right?

[quote]
The only reason I can guess you equate not being completely right with being damned is your over emphasis of the need for your denomination to be perfect. God's perfect, denominations and people aren't. Humans are inherently incapable of being completely right. I never equated being partially incorrect with damnation, but you have.
[/quote]


The Church is perfect and indefectible. Jesus is married to the Church, meaning He speaks through it. indeed popes have been wrong in the past, yet the Church has never erred. Take those atrocities at Assisi. John Paul II prayed with pagans and heretics, yet the Church still teaches it's wrong. John Paul II never taught it infallibly. And yes, I have. If there's no true Church, and every one is wrong in some way, people are then always going to be in error.

[quote]
I don't even begin to imply there is salvation in Satanism. What a way to paint with the wrong color and misrepresent. Please don't copy Budge. I understand Satanism as being anti-Good which is anti-God. Where did I even hint at striving for anti-Good was salvific? No where, because I never have.
[/quote]
Wait a second, now you're starting to be a denominational judger. Maybe the Satanists come to understand God as Satan? And if they're in complete error, then how can you say Buddhists (who are atheists), Muslims, etc are alright? How do you know they are? Islam is also anti-good. It isn't a religion of Peace, friend. Otherwise Mohammad wouldn't have gone around telling people to either convert or their entire village would be slaughtered. Hmm...sounds real God-like, and it's not even like it was one of it's followers. It was it's founder

[quote]Jesus Christ, Son of God, established a real and human Way of re-establishing, reconciling, aiding a human relationship with God. The Catholic Church has communicated that in human and supernatural way through the ages. Other Churches which are rooted in the fruits of that grace transmit much of that Grace. Churches, being part human as well, also have human limitations.
[/quote]
If the protestants broke away from the Church Jesus founded, didn't they break away from Jesus? And if it didn't quite matter what denomination you are, why did Jesus even bother establishing a Church?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Alexwise the Hobbit' post='1058724' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:10 PM']
That's the problem. We have to deal in absolutes. You're either worshipping God, or you're not. They partially worship God. if I partially drank, I'd eventually die of dehydration, right?
The Church is perfect and indefectible. Jesus is married to the Church, meaning He speaks through it. indeed popes have been wrong in the past, yet the Church has never erred.
Take those atrocities at Assisi. John Paul II prayed with pagans and heretics, yet the Church still teaches it's wrong. John Paul II never taught it infallibly. And yes, I have. If there's no true Church, and every one is wrong in some way, people are then always going to be in error.[/quote]Look at your comments together. Did you just say, "Thank god it's black because it's white."? Humanity has changed the concept of a 'church'. What Jesus established was a Way that was quite at home with gentiles outside the temple and Jews inside the temple. That's not quite the human constructed denomination of the Catholics.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058709' date='Sep 7 2006, 09:53 PM']Ive never used the term Romanist here.

Go through my posts, you wont see it in my own writing.[/quote]Though I didn't say that you did, your have contributed various posts using the terms "Romanism" and "Romish." It's all the same thing: using a derogatory label to score emotional points.

[quote name='Budge' post='1058709' date='Sep 7 2006, 09:53 PM']As for Muslims/Islamics...what are you my English teacher?[/quote]I guess it's come to that.

The fact that one can google a sequence of letters doesn't mean that it's a word in English. Try the dictionary if you're confused about a term.

[quote name='Budge' post='1058709' date='Sep 7 2006, 09:53 PM']What do you think of the term.. mohammedans?[/quote]Somewhat dated, usually not used by Muslims themselves; but it is a noun.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058175' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:39 PM']
When did Jesus or the apostles ever teach to unite with unbelievers and false religions to help "better" the world?
[/quote]

"But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."

Luke 10:33-37

[CatholicMonarchist3]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058819' date='Sep 7 2006, 11:51 PM']
Look at your comments together. Did you just say, "Thank god it's black because it's white."? Humanity has changed the concept of a 'church'. What Jesus established was a Way that was quite at home with gentiles outside the temple and Jews inside the temple. That's not quite the human constructed denomination of the Catholics.
[/quote]
No, I don't believe I did. Humanity has changed the concept of a Church? How?
If you trace back the popes, you do end up at St. Peter. I also think Ss. Peter and Paul chose the next pope. Jesus also said the Gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. I guess that means everyone is outside of Jesus' Church. There is absolutely no salvation outside of it. Why did St. Paul care about the Judaisers if it didn't matter? And what about Marcionsim in the early Church? The early Church obviously knew that there is only one true Church, otherwise they wouldn't have fought heresies, right?
And if it wasn't for the "human constructed denomination of the Catholics", you wouldn't have a bible

[Norseman82]

Back to the original question: Cardinal George was asked this question at St. Mary of the Angels (the Opus Dei parish in Chicago) a few years ago, and although he mentioned some ways in which we could possibly pray together - I don't exactly recall those exact scenarios - what I do remember is a stern warning to not turn a church into a mosque, because once that is done you cannot turn it back into a church (that is almost a direct quote). The bottom line is that whenever we interact with non-Christians, we must not compromise our Christianity. Now, some may feel that [i]any[/i] interaction with non-Christians compromises Christianity. Well, I guess I can respect your concerns, although I sure hope that if I get hit by a car and need an ambulance I won't bleed to death if a Christian refuses to accept a cell phone from a Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist in order to call 911.













Oh, and for the record, for about a year and a half or so, I actually had a fundamentalist Muslim roommate. We treated each other civilly, including when discussing matters of faith, and respected each other and gave each other our "space".

But I never recall praying with him, despite numerous opportunities.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Norseman82

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Alexwise the Hobbit' post='1058845' date='Sep 7 2006, 10:16 PM']
No, I don't believe I did. Humanity has changed the concept of a Church? How?
If you trace back the popes, you do end up at St. Peter. I also think Ss. Peter and Paul chose the next pope. Jesus also said the Gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. I guess that means everyone is outside of Jesus' Church. There is absolutely no salvation outside of it. Why did St. Paul care about the Judaisers if it didn't matter? And what about Marcionsim in the early Church? The early Church obviously knew that there is only one true Church, otherwise they wouldn't have fought heresies, right?
And if it wasn't for the "human constructed denomination of the Catholics", you wouldn't have a bible
[/quote]Read a little Church history and see how it has changed. Nothing you posted shows it hasn't. The Church that existed when it decided the Canon of the Bible is not the temporal Church that exists now. Do you really expect me to believe that the Church then would tolerate pedophiles priests, gay priests, and Bishops who not only harbor them, but foster them? Do you really think the Church 1800 years ago would allow the majority of it's congregation to outright disbelieve what it calls the Source and Summit of Grace, the Eucharist? I may have fallen off a turnip truck, but I didn't land on my head.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058859' date='Sep 8 2006, 12:35 AM']
Read a little Church history and see how it has changed. Nothing you posted shows it hasn't. The Church that existed when it decided the Canon of the Bible is not the temporal Church that exists now. Do you really expect me to believe that the Church then would tolerate pedophiles priests, gay priests, and Bishops who not only harbor them, but foster them? Do you really think the Church 1800 years ago would allow the majority of it's congregation to outright disbelieve what it calls the Source and Summit of Grace, the Eucharist? I may have fallen off a turnip truck, but I didn't land on my head.
[/quote]

The Church is composed of sinners, so while the proportion of various sins may have changed according the various cultures, the amount of sin is probably the same - we are aLL sinners. Pedophiles have always existed.
I don't know what the majority of people thought back then, since Gallop wasn't around to tell me, nor do I necessarily believe the polls of today.

[Resurrexi]

[quote] What do you think of the term.. mohammedans? [/quote]

It's a truthful word to describe those who do not worship God, but worship Mohammad's idol. I use it all the time!