Would U Pray With A Muslim...

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1058254' date='Sep 6 2006, 11:37 PM']
Muslims trace their roots back to Abraham through Ishmael. The specific verse they cite that references them is Genesis 21:18. Therefore they are the 3rd religion that traces it's roots back to Abraham. It is why it you hear the phrase "God of Abraham" so often.
[/quote]


The God of Abraham is the Trinity. Unless you think that the Second and third persons of the Trinity did not exist at the time of Abraham. Muslims, and Jews for that matter reject Christ and also the Holy Spirit (if I remember right someone correct me on the Spirit bit if I'm wrong). They don't believe Christ or the Holy Spirit is God. Plus it is said (in the CCC I think) that Muslims worship the Judge of us all, as God. Well according to Scripture, the Judge of the world is Jesus Christ.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]no i wouldnt, past popes have warned saying if you pray with heretics, or muslims and anti-catholics, that you become one with them. No thanks.[/quote]

Amen. I would NEVER pray with a Mohammadan unless we were praying a prayer DISTINCTIVELY adressed the Most Holy Trinity for his conversion to Catholicism.

BTW, budge, the Sacred Bible says "7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard." not "Pray ye not in vain repititions" or whatever it was. I think Christ meant to concentrate on your prayers for they will not be heard if you say them without meaning them.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1058260' date='Sep 7 2006, 12:44 AM']
The God of Abraham is the Trinity. Unless you think that the Second and third persons of the Trinity did not exist at the time of Abraham. Muslims, and Jews for that matter reject Christ and also the Holy Spirit (if I remember right someone correct me on the Spirit bit if I'm wrong). They don't believe Christ or the Holy Spirit is God. Plus it is said (in the CCC I think) that Muslims worship the Judge of us all, as God. Well according to Scripture, the Judge of the world is Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

This is true. It was Jesus who revealed the triune God. We know that the Trinity has existed really from the beginning but it took Jesus to tell us about the Trinity. Both Muslims and Jews sometimes have a hard time understanding that we Christians believe in one God. Allah supposedly spoke to Mohammad in about the year 600AD. Interestingly enough, or at least to me, they recognize Jesus' virgin birth. They see Jesus as a prophet among many but Mohammad is their main prophet, of course. However, the god that supposedly dictated the Koran is the God of Abraham.

I know this is a very simplistic discription. We deverge on a great many things but I think that we need to be aware of the roots. It is a bit of a tangled web. To me it is simple mystery. I believe in the triune God that Jesus told me about. It is through Jesus Christ that I will receive my salvation. My prayers no matter with whom I am praying are to Jesus.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1058285' date='Sep 7 2006, 12:27 AM']
This is true. It was Jesus who revealed the triune God. We know that the Trinity has existed really from the beginning but it took Jesus to tell us about the Trinity. Both Muslims and Jews sometimes have a hard time understanding that we Christians believe in one God . . . They see Jesus as a prophet among many but Mohammad is their main prophet, of course.
[/quote]

Ah see and here's the key difference as you point out. If Muslims and Jews actually worshipped the same God as Catholics then they would not have a hard time at all understanding that we worship one God, because they would be doing the exact same thing as us. But since they don't worship the same God, it is hard for them to understand how we can worship one God, and yet three different persons. Since they don't recognize the full God, Father Son and Spirit it is hard for them. They recognize Jesus as a prophet as you say, but they reject his divinity. He is God, yet they reject Him as God. Therefore there is no logical way they can be worshipping the same God as us. If we worship Jesus as God, and they don't, then they are not worshipping the same God.

Edited September 7, 2006 by goldenchild17

[Anomaly]

The posts of goldenchild and Tom are one of the many reasons I gladly am happily not a Catholic. It's a matter of following my conscience for Good.

Question: Is the God of Abraham different than the God of Paul? Abraham had no knowledge or understanding of a 'trinity'.

I find it very disturbing and quite offensive that religions spend so much effort to 'define their unique God' and work to deny any shared Truths with other religions. No such thing as recognizing we are all only partially right, none of us are completely right, and if we believe we are 'more right', that doesn't make everyone else 'completely wrong'. If all Good is from One God, any recognization of Good is recognizing the One God. (That must be it. Create a Denomination and you create a new God.)

[CatholicMonarchist3]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058329' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:49 AM']

Question: Is the God of Abraham different than the God of Paul? Abraham had no knowledge or understanding of a 'trinity'.
[/quote]
This is a different case. Abraham never knew of Jesus, yet Mohammad knew of Jesus. Islam says Jesus was only a prophet. That's totally wrong. Jesus is God the Son. God the Son is God (as is the Father and Holy Ghost). Therefore, Muslims do not worship God.

[quote]
I find it very disturbing and quite offensive that religions spend so much effort to 'define their unique God' and work to deny any shared Truths with other religions. No such thing as recognizing we are all only partially right, none of us are completely right, and if we believe we are 'more right', that doesn't make everyone else 'completely wrong'. If all Good is from One God, any recognization of Good is recognizing the One God. (That must be it. Create a Denomination and you create a new God.)
[/quote]
If no one is completely right, then wouldn't that mean we're all damned? You seem to imply there is even salvation in Satanism.
By the way, the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus, and all the other groups split off

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Alexwise the Hobbit' post='1058339' date='Sep 7 2006, 07:59 AM']
This is a different case. Abraham never knew of Jesus, yet Mohammad knew of Jesus. Islam says Jesus was only a prophet. That's totally wrong. Jesus is God the Son. God the Son is God (as is the Father and Holy Ghost). Therefore, Muslims do not worship God.
If no one is completely right, then wouldn't that mean we're all damned? You seem to imply there is even salvation in Satanism.
By the way, the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus, and all the other groups split off
[/quote]
Typical Denominational stereotypical judgement.

Is failure to recognize tantamount to conscience rejection? From the Christian perspective, Muslims fail to worship the full understanding of a triune god, but a partial understanding of the triune god. They worship God the Father.

The only reason I can guess you equate not being completely right with being damned is your over emphasis of the need for your denomination to be perfect. God's perfect, denominations and people aren't. Humans are inherently incapable of being completely right. I never equated being partially incorrect with damnation, but you have.

I don't even begin to imply there is salvation in Satanism. What a way to paint with the wrong color and misrepresent. Please don't copy Budge. I understand Satanism as being anti-Good which is anti-God. Where did I even hint at striving for anti-Good was salvific? No where, because I never have.

Jesus Christ, Son of God, established a real and human Way of re-establishing, reconciling, aiding a human relationship with God. The Catholic Church has communicated that in human and supernatural way through the ages. Other Churches which are rooted in the fruits of that grace transmit much of that Grace. Churches, being part human as well, also have human limitations.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1058346' date='Sep 7 2006, 10:16 AM']
Typical Denominational stereotypical judgement.

Is failure to recognize tantamount to conscience rejection? From the Christian perspective, Muslims fail to worship the full understanding of a triune god, but a partial understanding of the triune god. They worship God the Father.

The only reason I can guess you equate not being completely right with being damned is your over emphasis of the need for your denomination to be perfect. God's perfect, denominations and people aren't. Humans are inherently incapable of being completely right. I never equated being partially incorrect with damnation, but you have.

I don't even begin to imply there is salvation in Satanism. What a way to paint with the wrong color and misrepresent. Please don't copy Budge. I understand Satanism as being anti-Good which is anti-God. Where did I even hint at striving for anti-Good was salvific? No where, because I never have.

Jesus Christ, Son of God, established a real and human Way of re-establishing, reconciling, aiding a human relationship with God. The Catholic Church has communicated that in human and supernatural way through the ages. Other Churches which are rooted in the fruits of that grace transmit much of that Grace. Churches, being part human as well, also have human limitations.
[/quote]
I agree that being partially right is much better than being totally wrong. Muslims are worshipping God as they know Him, as are the jews. They lack the complete revelation known to the Catholic Church, that God is a Trinity, and Jesus is God.
I cannot fault anyone who prays for peace in this world-torn weary existance. All prayers directed for the good from a sincere heart surely end up before the throne of the God of us all.

[MIKolbe]

perhaps this insight is useful....

i found this online too

[i]Assisi is now a fixture in the Church. Benedict has now made sure of that. It looks as though he is satisfied that there is no syncretism. Still, the fact that pagan nations are still being called to pray, leads me to believe that there must be another explanation why this apparent breach is taking place that goes beneath the surface of what we see. In the larger picture, here is what I see happening.

Since the condition of the Church is so weak and faithless today, in God's typical fashion (as he did many time in the Old Testament with Israel), He calls the pagan nations to Him in place of His people who are turning away from Him (Jer 6:13-19; 16:16-21, etc). This serves as a sign both of the people’s apostasy and degraded state of the church, and an effort to make them jealous so that they return to God.

God will not be mocked. He will give back to you what you give to him and he will humble you in the process by the very things that you despise (Ezek 22:1-16; Dt 28:1-68; 1Cor 14:21-22). In Israel’s case, God used the Gentiles nations as His goad. In our case, God will use non-catholics and pagans. Because of what St. Paul says in 1 Cor 10:6-11 (that is, that the OT is our roadmap as to how God will treat us in the NT), we can apply to the present situation in the Church what Paul says about Israel in passages such as Romans 10:16-21:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry."
20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."
21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

What greater sign of their apostasy can God give to the bishops, priests and parishioners of the Catholic Church than by not calling them to Assisi and instead filling it with pagans who are told to seek Him and who are willing to make the long “pilgrimage” and “fast.” As Jesus said, the praise is either going to come from God's people, or the very stones will sing praise to God (Lk 19:37-40; also Mt 3:9). In this case the “stones” are the pagans at Assisi.

I used to think that the only thing the pope needed to do was call all the bishops to Assisi and pray for peace, which also made me think that consecrating Russia with all the bishops was just as easy. I don’t believe that any longer, since most of the bishops are in explicit or implicit rebellion against the pope. Many are so liberal that they don’t even hold what we recognize as the Catholic faith any longer. And many cardinals and bishops are either caught up in the pedophile and homosexual scandal, or they are condoning it with their silence and lack of discipline. It may be that, in place of the bishops that are too corrupt to be called to pray, God is mocking the Church’s prelates by allowing John Paul II and Benedict to call the pagan nations to pray to Him. God is telling us that THIS is the state of the Church – pagans now do what the bishops once did. This is why, using Jerusalem as a figure of the Church, John tells us in Apocalypse 11:8: “and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.”

Or why Peter says in 1 Peter 4:17:
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?” (cf., Jer 25:1-30).

The Apocalypse, especially Chapters 2-3, assure us that God will come and judge the Church first for its misdeeds, and He will start that judgment by casting on us the very abominations we were supposed to abhor. This is a constant and abiding theme in both the Old and New Testaments, and this is what I believe is happening at Assisi, and all over the Church today. [/i]

[cmotherofpirl]

You and I must see different Catholic Churches then. I see a weak and faithless world, and the shining beacon of hope which is the 2000 year old Catholic Church. It is filled with sinners, but then that is who Christ came for. The gates of hell have not prevailed.
Russia was consecrated.

God's timeline is a bit different than ours.

[Budge]

That article above is a confused muddle.

So the Catholic Church is bad but Assisi is good?

Thats one confused Catholic.

[cmotherofpirl]

Hey budge I gave you a thread with a question Ya gonna answer it???

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1058377' date='Sep 7 2006, 09:00 AM']
You and I must see different Catholic Churches then. I see a weak and faithless world, and the shining beacon of hope which is the 2000 year old Catholic Church. It is filled with sinners, but then that is who Christ came for. The gates of hell have not prevailed.
[/quote]

i think we see the same Church.

i did not write this, but i guess i came away with something different. I certainly did not mean to offend, nor do i subscribe to the idiocy of 'Catholic Church=wrong, ASSISI=right'.

i do agree with you, cmop, i see a weak and faithless world, and the shining beacon of hope is the Church, and YES, the gates of Hell will not prevail. But i also know the devil will always attact that which is Holy.

Yes, our Church, and every church is filled with sinners, and YES, Allelujah, that is why Christ came. But that does not make current sins (homosexuality in the priesthood, pedophilia and i am sure others) accecptable.

I fully accept we are a Church of sinners, but we cannot throw up our 'Catholic forcefield' and not acknowledge the sins of the people, more specifically the leaders of the Church. We have to acknowledge it, confess it, beg forgiveness, do pennace, and go and sin no more. (nb- i am NOT implying you prescribe to this 'forcefield', but i know those who do)

Jesus didn't say the leaders of the Church would be perfect and sinless, he promised the gates of hell would not prevail... he did not guarantee an easy fight, just that we, with Him, though Him, and in Him, would emerge the victor.

Perhaps Assisi is a pennace of sorts.. maybe He allows it to force us reexamine/refocus ourselves as individuals and as a Church...it upsets me to see the Pope kissing a Koran, or assuming we pray to the same God as the Dali Lama (sp)...but maybe that's the point...maybe the pennance for the sins of the people and the leaders of the Church is God allowing this to happen...

that is what i got out of the quote.

I offer this with humility, charity, and love; knowing that maybe i'm wrong. But that is how i see it.

JMJ,

MIKolbe

PS- i will bump the other thread that Budge has yet to answer :

[Winchester]

Mohammed knew of Jesus, but He also knew the Commandments.

He misunderstood (according to his own writings and history,) thinking Christianity had established more than one God.

He made a terrible theological error.

It is in human nature to make errors.

Whether he truly rejected Jesus in his heart is not for us to decide or to know..yet.

The religion is wrong. Undoubtedly. The people's souls belong to God. They're His ultimate responsibility. We will try to do His will as best we can and trust in His Mercy.

[Anomaly]

We got plenty of opinion. Some more thoughtful than others.
Where's the definitive Catholic answer?