Would U Pray With A Muslim...

[Anomaly]

I would pray with a muslim or a hindu or a buhdist or a jehovah witness or an american indian or a pagan if we were praying for the same thing.
I believe in One God to the best of my understanding and would give the benefit of the doubt to the other people praying. The God I perceive hears all prayers and judges them correctly.
But that's just me, a heretic, an infidel, an unbeliever by many human definitions.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1057726' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:14 AM']
There is no explanation nor excuse, nor context, to worship the god of a false religion.

That is basic Christianity 101, devotion to God alone.
[/quote]
Budge,
I think the area where you misunderstand is that (a) praying with non-christians for a specific cause compatible with Christianity is not the same as (b) praying the prayers of the Pagan to the Pagan God(s). You are correct in that getting (b) wrong is Basic Christianity 101. However, (a) praying with Muslims that God the Creator works to stop terrorism and killing of innocent civilians is not the same as (b) performing the Wiccan rite of Oak Tree Blessing that the Spirits of the Woodland forest would help your marriage.

Assisi is (a) not (b). (B) would break the commandment.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1057844' date='Sep 6 2006, 01:00 PM']I would pray with a muslim or a hindu or a buhdist or a jehovah witness or an american indian or a pagan if we were praying for the same thing.
I believe in One God to the best of my understanding and would give the benefit of the doubt to the other people praying. The God I perceive hears all prayers and judges them correctly.
But that's just me, a heretic, an infidel, an unbeliever by many human definitions.[/quote]
It's incorrect to say that just because someone worships A God, that we worship the same, one, true God.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the one, true God of Abraham, although only Christians have come to know him as a Trinity of persons, whereas Muslims and Jews only know him as a unity of substance. It is not necessary to know God as a trinity of persons in order to worship him, because this is a supernatural truth and cannot be known by reason alone. It can be known by reason alone that God is one, eternal, invisible and almighty. Muslims and Jews worship this God who reveals himself through reason, and so we worship the same God, the only God, as Pope John Paul points out above. Muslims and Jews also acknowledge this God historically as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

However, if someone's conception of God does not conform to what can be known by reason, then they are not worshipping the one, true God. That doesn't mean God can't hear their prayers, but the intended object of their prayer and worship is false and incorrect. Thus, it would be erroneous to pray WITH them.

It would not be erroneous to pray with a non-Christian who did know the one, true God, with one caveat that I mentioned above, the common prayer can't betray the respective and unique faiths of each participant. Pope Benedict references the Pater Noster as a good guide in any potential common prayer with non-Christians who share our faith in the one, true God.

[MIKolbe]

i would pray with him for his conversion.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1057855' date='Sep 6 2006, 12:22 PM']
It's incorrect to say that just because someone worships A God, that we worship the same, one, true God.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the one, true God of Abraham, although only Christians have come to know him as a Trinity of persons, whereas Muslims and Jews only know him as a unity of substance. It is not necessary to know God as a trinity of persons in order to worship him, because this is a supernatural truth and cannot be known by reason alone. It can be known by reason alone that God is one, eternal, invisible and almighty. Muslims and Jews worship this God who reveals himself through reason, and so we worship the same God, the only God, as Pope John Paul points out above. Muslims and Jews also acknowledge this God historically as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

However, if someone's conception of God does not conform to what can be known by reason, then they are not worshipping the one, true God. That doesn't mean God can't hear their prayers, but the intended object of their prayer and worship is false and incorrect. Thus, it would be erroneous to pray WITH them.

It would not be erroneous to pray with a non-Christian who did know the one, true God, with one caveat that I mentioned above, the common prayer can't betray the respective and unique faiths of each participant. Pope Benedict references the Pater Noster as a good guide in any potential common prayer with non-Christians who share our faith in the one, true God.
[/quote]Incorrect in your version of the 'catholic' perception, perhaps. I personally don't subscribe to that and would pray with anyone, of any faith, if we were praying for the same thing. If we were praying for the same thing, then assumedly, we would be praying for something Good and all Good comes from God. If you think you have to consult a Canon Lawyer to figure out if you can ask for something Good with someone of a different faith, then that is a 'belief system' I chose to not participate in.

It is nice to see something that Budge, Euty, goldenchild, and other 'christians' and 'catholics' have in common.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Anomaly

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1057865' date='Sep 6 2006, 01:42 PM']Incorrect in your version of the 'catholic' perception, perhaps/[/quote]
Yes, that is the Catholic understanding of the one, true God. That is all I can offer.

[quote]Is it possible to pray jointly with members of other religions, whether monotheist, polytheist, pantheist or transcendental? Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger responds to this question in his latest book.

"A distinction must be made between multireligious and interreligious prayer," the cardinal says in "Fede, verità, tolleranza -- Il cristianesimo e le religioni del mondo" (Faith, Truth, Tolerance -- Christianity and the World Religions), released by Cantagalli Publishers.

The prayers for peace in Assisi, called by John Paul II, are multireligious, as all participants pray at the same time but in different places.

In these cases, the participants "know that their way of understanding the divinity and, therefore, their way of addressing it, is so different that a common prayer would be a fiction, it would not be true," writes Cardinal Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

On the contrary, in interreligious prayers, people of diverse religious traditions pray together, he explains.

"Is it possible to do so in a truthful and honest way?" the author asks. He responds by saying that he seriously doubts it.

If such interreligious prayers are organized, however, they require three conditions, Cardinal Ratzinger stresses.

First, he says, it must be made clear that one is praying to the one, personal God; second, it must be established that what is being prayed for is not in contradiction to the Our Father; and third, it must be stressed that for Christians Jesus Christ is the sole redeemer of all people.

-[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=41665"][u]Source[/u][/url]-[/quote]

[MIKolbe]

[i]The question here is, where do we draw the line between holding false beliefs about the true God and worshipping another God entirely? For example, almost all Protestants and Catholics will agree that we worship the same God. Yet, we understand so central an attribute of God as His justice quite differently. Catholics believe that God is prevented by His justice from punishing an innocent man for the crimes of another. On the other hand, God punishing an innocent man for the crimes of others is the cornerstone of the theory of the atonement which most conservative Protestants hold: penal substitution. There are some Protestants (e.g. Oneness Pentecostals) who believe that Jesus is God and the Bible is the word of God, but don't believe in the Trinity. Do we worship a different God than them? Again, Jews don't believe in the Trinity. But how many Jews who convert to Christianity see themselves as abandoning the worship of a false God in favor of the true God? Rather, they see themselves as accepting the fullness of the revelation of the God they already knew.
[/i]

found this on the net...maybe it can prove useful.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

y Catechism was ruined last night in a rain (I left my window down ) so I can not give the exact quote or location, however I do no that it says something about the Muslims being among the first of those who do not follow Christ or something like that. Taking that into account along with,

1) JPII prayed with Muslims, and even kissed the Quran,
2) St. Theresa of Calcutta often prayed withy dieing people of different faiths.
3) Muslims worship the God of Abraham, so they worship the same God as the Jews, and Christians, it is their understanding about the fullness of God that differs. hrist reveals God, and if you do not accept him then you miss a HUGE part of the reality that is God
4) Just because Muslims call God Allah does not mean it is a different God. Allah is the Arabic word for GOD. Christians were using this word long before Muhammed even was a twinkle in his father's eye.

With all of the above taken together I have no problem praying with a muslim. In fact I have at times gone to the mosque after mass and prayed the Rosary as they said their prayers alongside me. There are things which divide us, however I think it is important to pray with them, and let our silent prayer be that God will bring them to the fullness of HIS truth.

[Eutychus]

[quote] Edit: I agree with Budge on this so far. I would be interested in hearing the rational for why we worship the same God as the Muslims, and the Jews for that matter. Besides the fact that the new catechism says so. Thanks smile.gif. I won't argue against it as that seems to be bad policy,[u] I just want to know why the Vatican is teaching this now.[/u][/quote]

Simple. YOU as a Roman Catholic cannot say what I can say { I notice we get more room in this area }...

That is called HERESY, plain and simple. That is why.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057989' date='Sep 6 2006, 04:24 PM']
Simple. YOU as a Roman Catholic cannot say what I can say { I notice we get more room in this area }...

That is called HERESY, plain and simple. That is why.
[/quote]
I know my belief is heresy according to the Vatican. I don't really care as I am not of that religion. Makes no difference to me. I just want to know why they do believe this. That's all.

[Budge]

[quote]
Budge,
I think the area where you misunderstand is that (a) praying with non-christians [size=5]for a specific cause [/size]compatible with Christianity is not the same as (b) praying the prayers of the Pagan to the Pagan God(s). You are correct in that getting (b) wrong is Basic Christianity 101. However, (a) praying with Muslims that God the Creator works to stop terrorism and killing of innocent civilians is not the same as (b) performing the Wiccan rite of Oak Tree Blessing that the Spirits of the Woodland forest would help your marriage.[/quote]

So what youre trying to tell me as long as a false rite isnt conducted, its ok to pray to a false God?

That means it would be ok to pray to Buddha as long as you were meditating.

That means it would be ok to invoke Vishnu or Shiva as long as you werent offering incense.

Sounds to me like your church has put ITS CAUSE way above God.

[quote]

Assisi is (a) not (b). (B) would break the commandment.

[/quote]

One thing Ive noticed on here, is how many excuses and disclaimers you folks have for every one of Gods DIRECT commandments. God didnt say its ok to pray with pagans for a cause that is "good enough".


[quote]I would pray with a muslim or a hindu or a buhdist or a jehovah witness or an american indian or a pagan if we were praying for the same thing.[/quote]

So why not go hang out with some Wiccans who are doing spells for healing or go to the Sweat Lodge and do a spirit quest?

I dont know why some of you folks are pretending to be Christians, why not go down to your local Unitarian Universalist Association church, and sign up. Then at least youll be honest about what you believe and have some integrity left rather then playing all these games about how the Christian God is supposely Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, Krishna. Catholcism is PRETEND Christianity. At least go admit you're really not a Christian.

[quote]
The God I perceive hears all prayers and judges them correctly.[/quote]

If you believe in the God that accepts the prayers of all religions, you are not praying to the One True God of the Bible.

[quote]

Is it possible to pray jointly with members of other religions, whether monotheist, polytheist, pantheist or transcendental? Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger responds to this question in his latest book.

"A distinction must be made between multireligious and interreligious prayer," the cardinal says in "Fede, verità, tolleranza -- Il cristianesimo e le religioni del mondo" (Faith, Truth, Tolerance -- Christianity and the World Religions), released by Cantagalli Publishers.

The prayers for peace in Assisi, called by John Paul II, are multireligious, as all participants pray at the same time but in different places.[/quote]

These are horrible horrible delusions your Popes are leading you into. So what if the participants are praying in different places, no true Christian who loves the God of the Bible would sponser prayers to demons and false spirits.

You all know I was UU. I have talked about how I was a Theosophist, in UU church, we prayed to Buddha, Vishnu, Allah, the goddess. We were NOT praying to God. We were praying to the devil and his minions. Yes I will be that direct. Today I know who God is, and I love God, I know the spirits of these false religions lead people to horrible things, and to DEATH and HELL.

Your church is cheating on God, has forsaken the first commandment, and is leading you all right into the antichrist's arms.

Why do you think its called the HARLOT?

Cheating on God.


[quote] it must be stressed that for Christians Jesus Christ is the sole redeemer of all people.
[/quote]

Another huge life of Rome, that Jesus Christ [being the sole redeemer of all people] saves via FALSE religions. That is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible, that is the new age, Lucis Trust-Theosophical/Freemason, cosmic christ, ANTICHRIST.

When Rome joins with Talmudic Judaism {basically every Jew who rejects Jesus Christ as Messiah and God} and Islamic, it marks itself as antichrist.

That isnt me marking it, that is God.

Both the Talmud and the Koran DENY Jesus Christ as God come in the flesh.

[size=5]1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.[/size]

That means Allah [of Islam] is not of God.

That means Talmudic Judaism where Christ is denied is Not of God.

That means those who worship with these folks and PRAY with them, are joining spirits that are NOT of God.

Sorry to be this blunt, but with the majority of posters here embracing interreligious worship and prayer, I KNOW we do not worship the same God.

I could never turn my back on Jesus Christ to be part of false worship or for any other.

It is like a marriage, you do not go CHEAT.

What do you think all the warnings about the HARLOT in the Bible are about?

Edited September 6, 2006 by Budge

[Paladin]

[quote name='Budge' post='1057766' date='Sep 6 2006, 12:31 PM']
Considering 2/3rds of the folks here would pray to Allah [of Islam]

Maybe they could join up with this gal...
[/quote]
Or, they could join up with this guy...

[quote]Pope: Interreligious prayer meetings are needed even more today

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

ASSISI, Italy (CNS) -- On the 20th anniversary of the first interreligious prayer meeting in Assisi, Pope Benedict XVI said the initiative had been a "prophetic" way for various faiths to witness against conflict and war.

The pope said such gatherings were needed even more today, when younger generations of all faiths must learn that prayer "does not divide, but unites" and that religion must never be used as an excuse for violence.

The pope made his comments in a message Sept. 4 to the 20th Interreligious Prayer Meeting for Peace in Assisi, Italy. Sponsored by the Sant'Egidio Community, the two-day encounter brought together more than 150 representatives of various world religions.

The pope's message offered a strong endorsement of the interfaith meetings that began in Assisi in 1986, surprising some observers. Vittorio Messori, a well-known Italian Catholic writer, had reported that as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope had strong doubts about the 1986 meeting and felt it emphasized spectacle over faith.

But in his message, Pope Benedict said Pope John Paul II had correctly perceived the value of having leaders of different faiths gather to send a message that true religion builds bridges and has nothing to do with violence.

"His invitation for a choral witness to peace served to clarify, without any possibility of misunderstanding, that religion can only be a source of peace," he said.

The 1986 meeting and those that followed have also highlighted the importance of prayer in changing human hearts and helping to clear the often difficult path to peace, the pope said.

"We need this 'education to peace' more than ever, especially looking at the new generations," the pope said.

"Many young people in areas of the world marked by conflict are educated in sentiments of hatred and vengeance, in ideological contexts that cultivate the seeds of ancient animosities and prepare hearts for future violence," he said.

The pope addressed bluntly the accusation, aired in some conservative church circles, that the Assisi meeting represented an injudicious blending of different faith elements and prayer expressions.

He noted that 20 years ago Pope John Paul emphasized that the religious leaders had not come together to seek a religious consensus or "negotiate" their faith convictions. Pope Benedict said the policy chosen in 1986, which continues today, is for the various religions to pray in their own distinct way even as they gather to witness in the same place. In this way, confusion is avoided, he said.

"The convergence of diverse representatives should not give the impression of a concession to that relativism which negates the very meaning of truth and the possibility of taking it in," he said.

The pope also offered a historical perspective on the 20 years that have followed the first interreligious prayer meeting. He said the fall of European communism and the promise of a more cooperative globalized economy generated hope for a new era of peace.

"Unfortunately, this dream of peace did not come true. On the contrary, the third millennium opened with scenarios of terrorism and violence that show no sign of dissolving," he said.

He said the fact that many conflicts today occur along regional geopolitical fault lines may give the impression that religious differences themselves constitute elements of instability or a threat to peace.

That only gives added relevance to the interreligious prayer meetings for peace, he said.

END


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 2006 Catholic News Service/USCCB. All rights reserved.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed.
CNS · 3211 Fourth St NE · Washington DC 20017 · 202.541.3250
[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]The pope said such gatherings were needed even more today, when younger generations of all faiths must learn that prayer "does not divide, but unites" and that religion must never be used as an excuse for violence.[/quote]

Total delusion.

But it is the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy.

[size=4]Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[/size]
Your Pope's are ushering in the one world religion.

One thing most people do not "get" is the antichrist will not show up wearing red and carrying a pitchfork, the world will really truely believe it is Jesus Christ returned.

So a false "Christianity" must accompany the antichrist.

[url="http://www.reachingcatholics.org/pope.html"]THE POPE'S PUSH FOR A ONE WORLD RELIGION[/url]

[img]http://www.scarboromissions.ca/Scarboro_missions_magazine/Issues/2002/September/images/cover.jpg[/img]

[Paladin]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058029' date='Sep 6 2006, 06:42 PM']
Total delusion.

But it is the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy.

[size=4]Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[/size]
Your Pope's are ushering in the one world religion.

One thing most people do not "get" is the antichrist will not show up wearing red and carrying a pitchfork, the world will really truely believe it is Jesus Christ returned.

So a false "Christianity" must accompany the antichrist.

[url="http://www.reachingcatholics.org/pope.html"]THE POPE'S PUSH FOR A ONE WORLD RELIGION[/url]

[img]http://www.scarboromissions.ca/Scarboro_missions_magazine/Issues/2002/September/images/cover.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
The [i]Pope's[/i] push for one religion? Read 1 Cor 3, or Luke 11:17. One religion isn't just a Catholic idea, it was Jesus' and St. Paul's idea.

[Budge]

Jesus and Paul were not universalists.

Jesus preached He was the only way, and he didnt mean via Buddha or Krishna....

Paul preached the gospel, he didnt preach lets all go be a happy one world family, and you pray to Baal and Jupiter while we pray to Jesus Christ over here.

[img]http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gif[/img]