megamattman1 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I think I finally realized a major aspect of salvation that I had been missing. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...=15entry87011 I've gone through many crisis's of the faith and this one started out as one. As my link post indicates, I believe prots and caths are saved in the same fashion. My question to both the prots and the caths on this site is are we forgiven before we even commit a sin? And woudn't God's unconditional love require this? My answer would be that we are already forgiven but are expected to grow in rightousness, thought it's not technically "required". This would be similar to how protestants grow in rightousness and love even though it's not technically "required". If we don't progress in rightousness, though we are loved and forgiven unconditionally "saved", we are not "saved" in the rightous/sanctificatinal sense. What are the catholic and protestant views on this? So to be clear the ultimate question is, do we have to do something to be forgiven? (notice I did not say "saved" as this word is ambiguous enough as it is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 personally all I'd think we'd HAVE to do is accept the fact that we are forgiven. and then deal with it and grow as a person. (to be "saved" in the satisfactional sense) I worry that too many of my catholic brothers and sisters don't realize this. Maybe I'm wrong in my assesments of this. This could turn out to be a major issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 we are not forgiven unless we asked to be forgiven. Free will gives us the right not to ask, and stay stubborn in our sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 My question to both the prots and the caths on this site is are we forgiven before we even commit a sin? Ask yourself this: can you wash your car today to clean off the dirt that will get on it tomorrow????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I worry that too many of my catholic brothers and sisters don't realize this. Maybe I'm wrong in my assesments of this. This could turn out to be a major issue. I think you're right. I have a friend who convert to Catholism (he was raised a whatever-church-bus-comes-for-you-on-Sundays protestant (so basically non-denom)), and he was never baptized (no altar call or anything) so when he was baptized as part of his conversion, he had a hard time understanding that he had been forgiven for his past sins. But I think he's coming around to that realization now... which is a great thing for him! It's amazing the emotional burden that is lifted even as a great responsibility to not sin is placed upon a person at baptism, or when we renew our baptismal vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Ask yourself this: can you wash your car today to clean off the dirt that will get on it tomorrow????? I appreciate the response. But I don't think yours is really analouguous with mine. Cuz this is about whether or not the owner of the car will hold me for it. Whether or not it's clean doesn't have anything to do with the owner holding me for it, right? Or does God demand me to "clean my car" to be forgiven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 we are not forgiven unless we asked to be forgiven. Free will gives us the right not to ask, and stay stubborn in our sin. Also on this. So why couldn't it be that we are already forgiven and all we have to do is acknowledge it? And free will gives us the right not to acknowledge or to be proud and not accept it even though it's true? either way? (much as I'd imagine Lucifer and is pride was all about) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Either way we lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_rev Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 We have to reconcile with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 We have to reconcile with God. We have to? Matt 5:23-24; 2 Cor 5:18-19; Romans 5:10; Col 1:22 God initiates the reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 initiates, but does not do for us . . . That's the thing about God, he can't force our will . . . we would cease to be free, we would be animatrons . . . and if we're animatrons, then screw it, I'm gonna be the animatron that has a lot of sex and drinks a lot and parties until the sun comes up . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I appreciate the response. But I don't think yours is really analouguous with mine. Cuz this is about whether or not the owner of the car will hold me for it. Whether or not it's clean doesn't have anything to do with the owner holding me for it, right? Or does God demand me to "clean my car" to be forgiven? Actually, my analogy goes like this: The car is your soul. The dirt is sin. The soap and water is God's forgiveness that washes away the sins. Now does my previous post make more sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 why do we need to be regenerated then norseman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 alright, you always pull out the Bible about how we really of our own power cannot accept God.. now, i submit to you that of our own free will we CAN reject God, and thus by choosing not to reject Him you accept His grace and forgiveness that He OFFERRED all along. it's always there for you. our choice to NOT REJECT HIM makes it so that His Grace can work in us. that's why when we have chosen not to reject God anymore and have asked for His forgiveness in the only way Christ tells us we can be assured we are forgiven, through the priests because whose sins they forgive are forgiven them and whose sins they retain are retained, we are "in a state of grace" so my statement would be so, we can choose to reject God by choosing sin. if we do not choose reject God by choosing to reject our sin, we are redeemed by God's Grace. the only way we are assured forgiveness is through the people whom Christ promised have the authority to forgive sins because if they forgive them Christ will forgive them, the Apostles and their successors, the Priests. what is my soteriological stance? lol i have no idea. just as long as i know this is what the Church teaches ( in different words which i think can be too easily misinterpretted to be 'contradicting scripture' ) and this is what the Scriptures teach and this is what the Early Church believed and taught. thank you, i gotta go to school in 2 hours. yay. :rolling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamattman1 Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Actually, my analogy goes like this: The car is your soul. The dirt is sin. The soap and water is God's forgiveness that washes away the sins. Now does my previous post make more sense? hmm.. so to be forgiven is actually to be cleansed. and to sin is to undo that forgivness/cleansing? cuz it's more than just a judicial assertion of accountability. interesting. that's given me something to think about. thanx. the only way we are assured forgiveness is through the people whom Christ promised have the authority to forgive sins because if they forgive them Christ will forgive them, the Apostles and their successors, the Priests. i would have argued that God's forgiveness is always but the other above quote got me something to think about. i'm still at issue with this statement though in that we (I) need to study the church history a little more to see if the Church's interpretation is right. I'mna hafta think about that first quote for a little :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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