Definitions

[Donna]

Well, it is useless then, to point out the many places in Scripture which speak of every man being judged according to his works; and take heed every one who imagines he stands, lest he fall, and all the rest.

You believe (yes?) that basically it matters not what a soul does if he believe in Christ Jesus.

And this soul, convincing itself, feeling itself confident in being saved, is saved, right?.

(glad you're a little better).

[photosynthesis]

It would be wrong to say that Protestants are not Christians because of certain sins committed by certain people during a certain time, especially since many current Protestants don't know what the words "incredulity" and "apostasy" mean in regard to church doctrine. If you don't know what a certain sin is, how can you be guilty of it?

If you're following Jesus, then you're following Jesus. but i guess it's not that simple.

[PedroX]

photo,

Sin, by and large, is objective. It goes against natural law. Murder is sin. Fornication is sin. It doesn't matter if somebody knows its sin, or not.

peace...

[Bruce S]

It would be wrong to say that Protestants are not Christians because of certain sins committed by certain people during a certain time, especially since many current Protestants don't know what the words "incredulity" and "apostasy" mean in regard to church doctrine. If you don't know what a certain sin is, how can you be guilty of it?

Many DO KNOW, exactly, what "incrdulity" and "apostacy" means, as defined by a certain denomination, they just laugh at defining salvation as being a denominational requirement.

Paul didn't have your denominational distinctives, he taught a belief in the risen Christ, a redeming Jesus, a God incarnate. He founded church's that were ALL independent on each other but linked by Jesus, and His message, not as a body for common worship styles, they varied immensely from church to church, that was why he wrote extensively to Corintians about containing the varieties of outpourings of the Holy Spirit, and the abuses ... while still encouraging them in their practices.

[jasJis]

Paul also warned against those who preached a Gospel that Paul did not preach.

You mispeak about what denominations are. Your experience and knowledge of Catholic Christians seems very small.

If you could come to Tampa, I would consider it a grace from God Himself to me personally, if you would spend 1 week and accompany me to attend a number of Masses at my parish, and a few other parishes. I will also take you to a few formal prayer groups and small communities. I would be blessed to have the opportuniy to show you the breadth of "style" and "personal preference" that Catholics worship and pray in. All will be acceptable to, and follow the guidance of, the Catholic Church.

Bring a heart open to God, ignore me and your feelings for who you may think I am, and I have no doubt you will come away amazed and blessed by God.

Deal? :deal:

Edited January 9, 2004 by jasJis

[Bruce S]

Paul also warned against those who preached a Gospel that Paul did not preach.

I am intimately familiar with ALL of Paul's Gospel. Mary is not mentioned once by him. People who are elevated after death by the Apostles are not mentioned once by Paul. Peter is put in his place, by Paul, corrected, and Paul took the rebuke, showing Paul certianly didn't consider Peter the head of anything, but one of many, special, but not one who had a larger role than others....

I can go on and one.

Someone else got all those mixed into the story, and it wasn't Paul.

[Bruce S]

If you could come to Tampa, I would consider it a grace from God Himself to me personally, if you would spend 1 week and accompany me to attend a number of Masses at my parish, and a few other parishes. I will also take you to a few formal prayer groups and small communities. I would be blessed to have the opportuniy to show you the breadth of "style" and "personal preference" that Catholics worship and pray in. All will be acceptable to, and follow the guidance of, the Catholic Church.

Why? You think I don't know Catholicsm, in the real world? Grin.

All my friends who I had from years ago ARE faithful committed Catholics.

This is just another repackaged ... "come learn from us, and you will see we are right" move, I got it, I got it. I KNOW you think you are right. OK.

I say...

You have SOME right, and some not.

How about YOU come and spend a week, we do some bible studies, attend Presbyterian bible study with me Monday nite, Christian and Missionary Alliance on tuesday lunch, study of Romans, Wednesday we do a Pentecostal healing service complete with tounges, Saturday morning we do the Messianic Jewish service, and Sunday a full blown Pentecostal shindig.

Instead of ME learning about Catholicsm [which, you forget I was raised in, have a family that still is, friends that are] YOU learn what good fundamentalists are doing, Messianic Jews are doing, and the like?

See, YOU move out of YOUR comfort zone.

You expect us to learn about your system, but are blinded by predgudice toward the entire world that exists outside your limited mindset and world system.

Grow...expand, learn, and you just might see what the allure outside the Catholic Church is that is setting the world afire.

MOST of the converts to Christianity today are Pentecostal, by a massive number, something is going on there....and it is either of God, or Satan.

Chose, but chose wisely, for we don't want to mock the Holy Spirit, that is the ONE sin that cannot be redemed and Jesus said was the ultimate of sins...

[jasJis]

Why? You think I don't know Catholicsm, in the real world? Grin.

All my friends who I had from years ago ARE faithful committed Catholics.

This is just another repackaged ... "come learn from us, and you will see we are right" move, I got it, I got it. I KNOW you think you are right. OK.

I say...

You have SOME right, and some not.

How about YOU come and spend a week, we do some bible studies, attend Presbyterian bible study with me Monday nite, Christian and Missionary Alliance on tuesday lunch, study of Romans, Wednesday we do a Pentecostal healing service complete with tounges, Saturday morning we do the Messianic Jewish service, and Sunday a full blown Pentecostal shindig.

Instead of ME learning about Catholicsm [which, you forget I was raised in, have a family that still is, friends that are] YOU learn what good fundamentalists are doing, Messianic Jews are doing, and the like?

See, YOU move out of YOUR comfort zone.

You expect us to learn about your system, but are blinded by predgudice toward the entire world that exists outside your limited mindset and world system.

Grow...expand, learn, and you just might see what the allure outside the Catholic Church is that is setting the world afire.

MOST of the converts to Christianity today are Pentecostal, by a massive number, something is going on there....and it is either of God, or Satan.

Chose, but chose wisely, for we don't want to mock the Holy Spirit, that is the ONE sin that cannot be redemed and Jesus said was the ultimate of sins...

Bruce,

I came home to Jesus after leaving Catholicism. I was led home by Christian witness by Christians of many denominations. I have share this with you repeatedly in posts.

Why do you ignore what I share with you and say I don't know anything else? Are you so filled with fear that you Hate what I have found and deny it?

[Bruce S]

Are you so filled with fear that you Hate what I have found and deny it?

Don't have any hate whatsoever. Sorry you feel that way.

What denomination did you dabble in while a protestant? I think I recall you mentioning Presbyterianism, right? What flavor USA or America, if you were?

Did you stick a toe in any other waters while you were apostate>?

[jasJis]

Don't have any hate whatsoever. Sorry you feel that way.

What denomination did you dabble in while a protestant? I think I recall you mentioning Presbyterianism, right? What flavor USA or America, if you were?

Did you stick a toe in any other waters while you were apostate>?

Well, that cleared up a few things. You really don't read my posts, do you? ::

My loved and graced filled fellow Christians that helped me to seek Jesus that are not Catholic are almost all Pentacostal and Southern Baptist. One other very learned Christian and son of a church Minister was pretty non-denominational, but his theology was mostly Calvinistic. I don't even know any Presbyterians but I've seen a church once.

EDIT

I just got to add this. I've posted it before, but Bruce, you must have missed it. One of the most powerful Christian witnesses that helped me become Catholic in more than name is and ex-Catholic who became Pentecostal (and still is Pentecostal). Just because she is right, doesn't mean she is completely right. (I hope your head didn't pop, Bruce. If I was an octopus, I would have inked myself just now.) Too funny.

-I want to add this too. I fully expect you to come up with some nonsense post that won't acknowledge the message of my post and speed it's burial to a back page on this thread. Just as has happened in other threads. Kinda kicks a big a.. hole in the canoe you're floating that I'm myopic and blinded by the hierarchy of the Catholics. Most of the other knowledgeable Catholics here were ex-Catholics or committed non-Catholics at one time.

Edited January 9, 2004 by jasJis

[Bruce S]

I fully expect you to come up with some nonsense post that won't acknowledge the message of my post and speed it's burial to a back page on this thread. Just as has happened in other threads.

Thank you for once, trying to interact, and not lecture.

I appreciate that.

I was wondering why my posts were mysteriously going "poof" I took heat for another site doing that, despite my protestations that all threads are valid and all viewpoints, however out of sych with site ownership, should be allowed to stand.

Censorship isn't what we should aspire to, nor be the goal of any site that wants interaction with people willing to come, expose themselves, and take the heat too.

Anyway, I understand the desire of newly committed Catholics to defend the faith. That is admirable.

Watch EWTN with me tonight, Coming Home will have a former Presbyterian Minister as the interview, I guess we will learn what he learned, I will be watching.

You need to keep a few of the Protestants around you know, look at how we keep you involved and interested, without us, you would just be reconfirming to each other that you are right, and THAT isn't much fun is it?

There is an entertainment factor to being here, for all of us, frankly, if we were to be honest, insteading of telling other Christians that we have the right viewpoint, ALL of us should be out there, in the ugly pagan culture we live in, taking the message of Jesus to the sinners, those that don't even know, nor care, what being a Christian is.

Some day ask me what I do three nights a week, I live in then in a world you would never believe, divorce, sickness, hate, disease, the real world.

I come here, online to escape the uglies, not to make them worse.

Sorry you view this as a battle to the death, I don't, to me, it is enlightening, to expose myself to your viewpoints, push you a little to make you think, have YOU push me back for the same reason.

Open your mind, and understand that in real life we most likely are very similar, it is only here, in this abstract world of text that we are not.

XXX

[jasJis]

Bruce,

I don't come here for any entertainment. Please see the Amusement link above. I come here to recieve what others ahve learned, and to share what I have learned. It's pointless to show each other our scars as if it is a competition. I live in the same world as you. Divorce, murder, sexual abuse, hate, fear, lies, hopelessness, despair, abandonment, love of self, money, poverty. I am old in life and have had decades to live. I am not a newly committed Catholic, My burning desire to know God and coming home to the Flock happened years ago.

No body is "poofing" your posts. Phatmass isn't about censorship, nor is it afraid of exercising good judgement.

I've watched EWTN. Have read "Surprised by the Truth", "Home Sweet Rome", Envoy magazine, etc. I have no desire to keep "Protestants" around me. Protestantism has nothing to offer. I do have, and keep them very close, and love to discuss Christianity with other Christians, most who happen to be non-Catholic. But it is Christian TRUTH I seek to find and share. It's surprising how easy it is to find, and how much, much, much easier it is to ignore. It's lots of fun to re-confirm to each other the TRUTH we know. It IS a Love Fest.

Posting here is not entertainment. It IS being out there. I learn and personally grow. I stop visiting when I am not growing. I teach Christian TRUTH to teens. I learn much from here, both how to teach, and what to teach. There is something about learning to teach. It seems I am the one who is taught.

I am not saddened to view this as a battle to the death. I strive to serve Christ, and God it's God's will we join in building His Kingdom on Earth that witness His victory over Death.

You can get off your pedestal now. I cannot enlighten you by reflecting your pride: "to me, it is enlightening, to expose myself to your viewpoints, push you a little to make you think, have YOU push me back for the same reason." I don't seek to push you at all. You are an adult with complete mental capabilities. It's tough enough pushing myself. If I can ease your way by sharing your burden, hop on. If I can offer to you some of what has strengthned me, I offer it to you know. Sadly, I cannot stop. I cannot leave the path. I cannot set my load aside. I have what I have to carry, and will carry what of yours I am graced to bear.

My mind is open to the fact we are identical in nature, need, and shortcomings. We are identical in heritage and inheritance. We possess our uniqueness, but possess much more in common identify of who we are. That is the TRUTH in Christ that brings us as together as One, but whose denial will seperate us far as East is from West.

"Father, hear the prayers of the family you have gathered here before you. In mercy and love unite all your children wherever we may be. "

[Bruce S]

live in the same world as you. Divorce, murder, sexual abuse, hate, fear, lies, hopelessness, despair, abandonment, love of self, money, poverty. I am old in life and have had decades to live. I am not a newly committed Catholic, My burning desire to know God and coming home to the Flock happened years ago.

Good. Let us minister to those who need Christ in hurting lives, not beat each other up....the world is ugly. Let's go and try and save a few of those hurting souls.

Posting here is not entertainment. It IS being out there. I learn and personally grow. I stop visiting when I am not growing. I teach Christian TRUTH to teens. I learn much from here, both how to teach, and what to teach. There is something about learning to teach. It seems I am the one who is taught.

We talk with other Christians here, there isn't a pagan in sight, should be, we could then minister to those who are in need. We both come to sharpen our discernment, test out messages against others, and to learn. We share that in common.

I strive to serve Christ, and God it's God's will we join in building His Kingdom on Earth that witness His victory over Death.

And you don't think others are too? Equally? With the same passions?

"Father, hear the prayers of the family you have gathered here before you. In mercy and love unite all your children wherever we may be. "

Amen.

[jasJis]

And here is where we separate.

Good. Let us minister to those who need Christ in hurting lives, not beat each other up....the world is ugly. Let's go and try and save a few of those hurting souls.

The world is ugly. Apathy is the ugliest thing because it allows evil to flourish. I don't want to beat anyone up. It's much more comfortable to be one of the sheep, but the shepherd's helper must strike the wolf when it attacks the sheep or to drive it away when it comes close.

We talk with other Christians here, there isn't a pagan in sight, should be, we could then minister to those who are in need. We both come to sharpen our discernment, test out messages against others, and to learn. We share that in common.

Pagans come, and pagans go. They are welcome, but we tend to bore them. I have yet seen any leave in anger

.

And you don't think others are too? Equally? With the same passions?

I do think most here strive to serve Christ. Not equally, and not all. I honestly believe most are more passionate and/or capable than I, but then, I know myself better. I do not think that all who come here strive to serve Christ. Sometimes I think that's why I come here, but find myself stroking my own ego. A good barometer in my experience, is to check to see if you are learning more than you are offering. Works well for me. But don't diminish or ignore what's already been given to you. Tough to do. Grace is requried. ;)