Recommended Outside Reading Editorial

[Eutychus]

If anyone wants a true understanding of the genesis of the problems that have been devestating the American church, this essay by Fr. Robert Hoatson is devestatingly dead on. All the finger pointing, essentially misses the group that is the root cause.

Renew America, is the political site of Roman Catholic Alan Keyes, who might be one of the finest spokespersons for traditional American values of our age. The columnist, Matt C. Abbot is a brave young man, willing to tackle the hard ones. I have a lot of respect both for Alan Keyes and for Matt.

This is well worth reading totally to the end.

This is a VERY pro-Roman Catholic site, pro-Roman Catholic topics, so no charge can be made of an anti-RC bias.

[url="http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/060902"]RENEW AMERICA ~ RENEW THE CHURCH[/url]

[desertwoman]

Alan Keyes is hard core, and his persona may not help him in getting the presidency, sadly. Oboma has a better chance with his charisma.

But I digress, this is truly sad and its running rampant in the Catholic Church. Since what I've learned so far about RC, celibacy is not set in stone. If its not set in stone, why doesn't the Pope see what's going on, and change this? Of course monks take a vow of celibacy and so do nuns, but can't there be a screening?

If someone has proof of someone being sexualy active in the convenant, monastary, or where ever... they should be kicked out and brought to justice...period.

Why doesnt the Roman Rite follow the Eastern Rite and allow its priest's to marry? I know that this won't completly stomp out this problem for we have it in Protestant churches (the down low phenomon. [url="http://www.amazon.com/On-Down-Low-Journey-Straight/dp/076791399X/sr=8-6/qid=1157374071/ref=sr_1_6/102-7675908-4196901?ie=UTF8&s=books"]Down Low Brothers[/url] this brother came out and finally blew the lid on the whole deal. It was known that this was going on in some churches, but brother hit it close to home), but man. Something has got to give. Do something that shows that this is nothing to play with. Imagine if this happened to your child! What would you do? Forgiving is fine, but all crimes and sins must be punished. David was a man after God's own heart, yet when he sinned, God punished him. These people must be brought to justice.

Edited September 4, 2006 by desertwoman

[peach_cube]

The thing is other countries don't have problems forming celibate priests, therefore the problem can't encompass the whole of the church. The problem is found in affluent nations, with the worst being the U.S. George Weigel touches on things that must be done in his book "The Courage to Be Catholic; Crisis, Reform, and the Future of the Church."

[Mateo el Feo]

The citation of "The Bingo Report" is a pretty bad sign, if one is looking for objectivity. It was written by an advocacy group (read: old lady in her basement) for married priests.

I admit, this text isn't "anti-Catholic" in the sense that it's coming from an actual non-Catholic. On the other hand, I wouldn't consider a group like VOTF or CITI as "pro-Catholic."

On rare occasion, I've had personal run-ins with the "lavender mafia," as they are called. I think their portayal is a bit exagerated, but the Catholic Church is taking active steps to make sure that seminaries conform with Church teachings of faith and morals, including homosexuality (e.g. [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben16/Instructions.htm"]this statement, approved by Pope Benedict[/url]). The instructions are pretty straight-forward (no pun intended).

So I guess my question is, what group are you referring to in the following sentence?[quote]All the finger pointing, essentially misses the group that is the root cause.[/quote]

[Budge]

Normal men want wives, when the Catholic Church wants to enforce celibacy on men which is a "doctrine of demons" in the Bible, they have almost made a guarantee that their field of men who are interested are sexual ambivalents, and homosexuals.

Peter was married as were other apostles.

Rome just wants control, that is what enforced celibacy is about. Men with wives and families may actually have more compassion and some accountability.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056518' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:15 PM']
Normal men want wives, when the Catholic Church wants to enforce celibacy on men which is a "doctrine of demons" in the Bible, they have almost made a guarantee that their field of men who are interested are sexual ambivalents, and homosexuals.[/quote]I hate to hear what you think of Our Lord and St. Paul.

BTW, no man is forced into a life of celibacy.

[quote name='Budge' post='1056518' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:15 PM']Rome just wants control, that is what enforced celibacy is about. Men with wives and families may actually have more compassion and some accountability.[/quote]So Our Lord and St. Paul had less compassion and accountability?! Wow.

[Budge]

There are rare individuals committed to their work who FREELY choose celibacy.

Their personalities and more are suited to a life of celibacy.

it is to be a FREE choice however not forced upon someone to have a certain profession.

Celibacy obviously isnt working for your church.

It is based on the fact that the MYSTERY religions of Rome, turned all its priests into eunuchs.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056518' date='Sep 4 2006, 12:15 PM']
Normal men want wives, when the Catholic Church wants to enforce celibacy on men which is a "doctrine of demons" in the Bible, they have almost made a guarantee that their field of men who are interested are sexual ambivalents, and homosexuals.
[/quote]

What about what Paul said in 1 Cor. 7:31-35? Are these people that Paul wrote about "abnormal"? Or was Paul "abnormal" as some Episcopal bishop postulated?

I agree that not everyone can handle celibacy, whether it be the physical or emotional part. That's why people have to discern their state of life.

[Budge]

[quote]I agree that not everyone can handle celibacy, whether it be the physical or emotional part.[/quote]

This is why scripture teaches this.

Ce[b]libacy should never be forced on anyone...it is a rare gift given to a very few. The Bible says everyone else should marry.

Obviously it is NOT working for your church any longer!

I know priestly celibacy is only a discipline not a doctrine in Rome, but the homosexuals will never allow marriage of priests, something folks like VOTF and other Catholics should figure out.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 [b]Forbidding to marry,[/b] [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056527' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:25 PM']There are rare individuals committed to their work who FREELY choose celibacy.[/quote]Rare, like a "one-in-a-thousand"? Sounds about right.

[quote name='Budge' post='1056527' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:25 PM']it is to be a FREE choice however not forced upon someone to have a certain profession.[/quote]Priesthood isn't a profession, it's a vocation.

[quote name='Budge' post='1056527' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:25 PM']Celibacy obviously isnt working for your church.[/quote]It is not obvious. Considering that my only personal encounter with ministers sexually abusing minors (male adult, male child) was commited by a married baptist minister, you might see why I'm a bit skeptical of your "obvious" statement.


[quote name='Budge' post='1056537' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:33 PM']Obviously it is NOT working for your church any longer![/quote]Repeat a lie often enough...

[homeschoolmom]

No on is forced to remain unmarried-- NO ONE. The priesthood is not a profession.

[Norseman82]

Budge,

I don't know if you read the history of celibacy, but one of the factors in the decision to make celibacy mandatory in the Western Church was corruption in the Middle Ages in which clergy were misappropriating church property to their children. So, if anything, the decision to embrace celibacy at the time was actually fulfilling 1 Cor. 7:35, so that the clergy would not be distracted in their work.

Also, celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine/dogma. The Eastern rites of the church ordain married men in a fashion similar to the Eastern Orthodox. And the Church could change the celibacy rules tomorrow. Would it make a difference? Would all the problems of the world be solved by it? I don't know. Are the Eastern rites overflowing with more priests than they know what to do with? Are those protestant denominations with married pastors immune from sexual misconduct, whether straight or homosexual, or are they just not the big fish that the Catholic Church is?

And I've heard of plenty of examples of men who are married or who are shack-up partners with their girlfriends who abuse young boys/girls as well, so this is not just a "Catholic celibacy" thing.

What really needs to be addressed is the promiscuity and sickness in western society today.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Norseman82

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1056545' date='Sep 4 2006, 12:50 PM']
What really needs to be addressed is the promiscuity and sickness in western society today.
[/quote]

[Budge]

[b]You all naive enough to think that homosexuality/sexual deviancy in the Catholic clergy is something that is [u]NEW[/u]?[/b]

I posted this book on another thread...

[img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1566252652.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V56598034_.jpg[/img]

[quote]
AUTHORS CLAIM CATHOLIC SEX ABUSE NOTHING NEW

LOS ANGELES, April 21 /U.S. Newswire/ -- As moviegoers await the release of the fictional thriller "The DaVinci Code," the authentic existence of secrecy within the Catholic Church is exposed in "Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse" (Volt Press, $29.95).
[b]
Authors Thomas P. Doyle, A.W.R. Sipe and Patrick J. Wall provide extensive documentation -- much of which has never before been published -- indicating that sexual abuse of minors and vulnerable adults by Catholic clergy not only spans the Church's history, but has in fact, been well-known and protected by its hierarchy for centuries.[/b] It illustrates the depth of the Church's awareness of this issue; its concerns, failures and tactics for addressing the problem; and its methods of keeping it secret.

The authors begin their survey in 60 CE, concluding with the contemporary scandal. Since this issue first ignited public concern in the 1980s, exponential reports of abuse continue to surface around the world. Church officials have long maintained they were not previously aware of such misconduct, but "Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes" shows even a cursory examination of Church documents proves they had a constant knowledge, and used various tactics to protect their image.[/quote]

Enforced celibacy breeds these things.

[quote]
I don't know if you read the history of celibacy, but one of the factors in the decision to make celibacy mandatory in the Western Church was corruption in the Middle Ages in which clergy were misappropriating church property to their children.[/quote]

You are right about part of this, but what it was, is they didnt want the property going to the children, the church wanted to keep it all. So it made a rule its priests couldnt marry....

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056620' date='Sep 4 2006, 03:06 PM']
You are right about part of this, but what it was, is they didnt want the property going to the children, the church wanted to keep it all. So it made a rule its priests couldnt marry....
[/quote]

Well, is there something wrong with making sure that property is not misappropriated? The best comparison I can think of are rules against corporate officers misappropriating corporate assets and 401Ks for personal use.