An open letter to Budge

[XIX]

This is mostly aimed at Budge.

I’ve had the pleasure of reading some of your posts over the last few weeks. I usually stay out of the debates, because I see no point in turning a 6-on-1 debate into a 7-on-1. Especially when the others on Phatmass are generally better educated about the Catholic Church than I. I think there lies the great potential for some terrific, good spirited debates, as you are also a very well educated person. You at least come across that way, based on your ability to quote the Bible and come up with all sorts of different sources. Tip of the hat, I am rather impressed.

But here is what really sticks my craw about you

The claims that you make about the Catholic Church are so outlandish and obviously false that I fail to take you seriously. Worse, I find it incredibly difficult to buy the notion that you really believe the things that you say about the Catholic Church. There is just no way a rational, unbiased mind can come up with these conclusions, including but not limited to the following;

• You think helping other souls be saved is heretical
• You think praying for famous people is heretical
• You think we worship a monstrance, not what’s inside it
• You think Chick Publications is a credible source of Catholic history
• You think Mardi Gras is really Catholic
• You think raunchy party animals are really Catholic

Etc. etc. etc. This is a far cry from believing that Catholic worship Mary, for example. Or bread. Or icons. At least those are understandable, relatively speaking.


Of course, my contention is that you are way too intelligent to believe these things to be actually true; most people are by the time they hit college, if they have any kind of education about the history of the Catholic Church. Now, it’s very very possible that I’m just naïve and that you really do believe all of these things. Who knows. The point is, you can certainly be more intelligent. I am asking you, in the nicest way possible, to please take a step back, if only for a few seconds. Take an honest look at yourself. Take your anti-Catholic claims at face-value for a moment. I’m not asking you to convert. We can sort that out later.

All I’m asking of you is to be a little bit more open-minded. I’d love to see that.

I’ll give you a dollar. :

[Budge]

Denial is NOT just a river in Egypt.

No one here has been able to disprove my claims.

[Eutychus]

[quote] And Eutychus, to a lesser extent[/quote]

Uhhh, last time I checked, I have MY concerns, she has hers.

We are not joined at the hip, FWIW.



[quote]• You think raunchy party animals are really Catholic [/quote]

No, really, the latity is often sober and mature, however there are really party hearty boys, and they are mostly seminarians...or at least that is what the Roman Catholic sites have been saying for the past few years...

{ don't blame me, I just report on what the Catholic Church writers themselves have been reporting on... }

[quote]Two years ago the rector of the Cleveland seminary confirmed that there are also many seminary faculties which include a disproportionate number of homosexuals. And he added that "straight men in a predominantly or significantly gay environment commonly experience self-doubt." [b]In order to understand the magnitude of the problem, one must understand that the gay subculture is so prominent at some seminaries that these institutions have earned nicknames such as [u]The Pink Palace, Notre Flame, and The Theological Closet[/u].[/b][/quote]

[url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=21229"]LINK TO SOURCE[/url]

Edited September 4, 2006 by Eutychus

[XIX]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056231' date='Sep 3 2006, 07:15 PM']
No one here has been able to disprove my claims.
[/quote]
Nobody has been able to prove that it's okay to pray for others?? Do you understand what you are saying here?

[quote]Denial is NOT just a river in Egypt.[/quote]
You got that right.

[quote]No, really, the latity is often sober and mature, however there are really party hearty boys, and they are mostly seminarians...or at least that is what the Roman Catholic sites have been saying for the past few years... [/quote]
The point is, many "Catholics" have excommunicated themselves through their homosexual and otherwise raunchy lifestyles and acceptance thereof.

Surely you are aware that the Catholic Church is against unchastity? And as such, unchaste relationships are uncatholic?

Edited September 4, 2006 by XIX

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056231' date='Sep 3 2006, 09:15 PM']
No one here has been able to disprove my claims.
[/quote]

Ah, but they ARE able to, and not only that, but they've disproved your claims time and time again, yet you refuse to listen to what we have to say and keep on repeating your nonsensical claims, as if saying them enough will make them true.

[Eutychus]

[quote] The point is,[u] many "Catholics" have excommunicated themselves through their homosexual and otherwise raunchy lifestyles and acceptance thereof.[/u]

Surely you are aware that the Catholic Church is against unchastity? And as such, unchaste relationships are uncatholic?[/quote]

According to the best students of this problem, the range of homosexual priests is anywhere between 30-65% { widely varying numbers naturally }

So, using your comment above, if they EXCOMMUNICATE THEMSELVES, by these actions and lifestyles on a Saturday night, then get up on Sunday and serve you communion....are 1/3rd of all Roman Catholics getting communion from an "EXCOMMUNICATED NON-CATHOLIC?"

Just wondering?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056231' date='Sep 3 2006, 09:15 PM']
Denial is NOT just a river in Egypt.

No one here has been able to disprove my claims.
[/quote]

If these are any of your claims
• You think helping other souls be saved is heretical
• You think praying for famous people is heretical
• You think we worship a monstrance, not what’s inside it
• You think Chick Publications is a credible source of Catholic history

then what do you expect...
That is because no one here actually takes any of your claims seriously.
Most people read them, laugh and walk away.

You find molehillls, and try to make mountains.

You are not the least bit interested in what Catholics believe, since when we do tell you, you argue and tell us we are wrong anyway.

The bottom line is you have no claim for any authority for your personal opinions of what the bible teaches. The Bible, and the NT specifically, are products of the Church, selected and authorized by the Church. You refuse to acknowledge the authority of Tradition, which is equal to Scripture. By the way, do you worship in a building on Sundays? That tradition is from the Church. Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter, those are from the Church as well.

The only claim to any teaching authority is the Church [ there is only one] who is the pillar and foundation. Not you, or any other little group out there.






[quote name='Eutychus' post='1056433' date='Sep 4 2006, 08:49 AM']
According to the best students of this problem, the range of homosexual priests is anywhere between 30-65% { widely varying numbers naturally }

So, using your comment above, if they EXCOMMUNICATE THEMSELVES, by these actions and lifestyles on a Saturday night, then get up on Sunday and serve you communion....are 1/3rd of all Roman Catholics getting communion from an "EXCOMMUNICATED NON-CATHOLIC?"

Just wondering?
[/quote]
best students??
Abortion excommunicates you, so I don't think most priests have had that.
Mortal sin does not disqualify you from being a priest. They go to confession just like everyone else. Jesus in the Sacrament does not depend on the priest being sinless.

[Budge]

[quote]
The point is, many "Catholics" have excommunicated themselves through their homosexual and otherwise raunchy lifestyles and acceptance thereof.

Surely you are aware that the Catholic Church is against unchastity? And as such, unchaste relationships are uncatholic?[/quote]

How can you come up with this stuff with a straight face?

Even CATHOLICS {like Michael Rose, and Brady} ADMIT that the Catholic leadership is being ran by a cadre of OPEN and ACTIVE homosexuals. Google LAVENDER MAFIA. This isnt something that is made up from "anticatholics", CATHOLICS discuss it among themselves.

The paperwork may say the Catholic church is chaste, but the actions dont. The leadership does not support chastity.

One of the many many reasons I left was refusing to be under the leadership of reprobate homosexuals. I am not brainwashed as to the reality of where the sin of homosexuality leads people. I do not believe that any homosexual should be the leader or minister or pastor of ANY church. Everyone sins, but homosexuality is a sin that leads to many others. Anyone who has not repented and left the homosexual lifestyle or thought process even, should not be a pastor. {The Bible links reporbation with homosexuality} I was in a Catholic church where a past priest even had been arrested in a gay bathhouse and other things later happened.

I am glad I am under the leadership now of a normal healthy MARRIED man...

just like scripture backs up.

[size=5]1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless,[u] the husband of one wife[/u], vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;[/size]

[XIX]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056456' date='Sep 4 2006, 08:45 AM']
How can you come up with this stuff with a straight face?

Even CATHOLICS {like Michael Rose, and Brady} ADMIT that the Catholic leadership is being ran by a cadre of OPEN and ACTIVE homosexuals. Google LAVENDER MAFIA. This isnt something that is made up from "anticatholics", CATHOLICS discuss it among themselves.

The paperwork may say the Catholic church is chaste, but the actions dont. The leadership does not support chastity.

One of the many many reasons I left was refusing to be under the leadership of reprobate homosexuals. I am not brainwashed as to the reality of where the sin of homosexuality leads people. I do not believe that any homosexual should be the leader or minister or pastor of ANY church. Everyone sins, but homosexuality is a sin that leads to many others. Anyone who has not repented and left the homosexual lifestyle or thought process even, should not be a pastor. {The Bible links reporbation with homosexuality} I was in a Catholic church where a past priest even had been arrested in a gay bathhouse and other things later happened.

I am glad I am under the leadership now of a normal healthy MARRIED man...

just like scripture backs up.

[size=5]1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless,[u] the husband of one wife[/u], vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;[/size]
[/quote]
LOL, now you think that being single is a sin! You wonder why nobody can take you seriously.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1056433' date='Sep 4 2006, 07:49 AM']
According to the best students of this problem, the range of homosexual priests is anywhere between 30-65% { widely varying numbers naturally }

So, using your comment above, if they EXCOMMUNICATE THEMSELVES, by these actions and lifestyles on a Saturday night, then get up on Sunday and serve you communion....are 1/3rd of all Roman Catholics getting communion from an "EXCOMMUNICATED NON-CATHOLIC?"

Just wondering?
[/quote]
This is the type of stuff that ticks me off. Do we have priests with homosexual tendencies, of course (so do evangelical churches). Are thirty percent of priest homosexual . You continue to lie and throw anything out there to justify silliness. And anyway what kind of statistics is 30%-65%. Please quote the source on this one because I need a good laugh this morning.

[chris]

What about what Christ himself said about those who make themselves
eunichs for the faith?

Or St. Paul mentions that a man who is married will be too worried on the ways to please his wife. But an umarried man is anxious about the ways of the LORD. He mentions that if he is married he is divded. (1 Cor 7:32-34) see also (1 Cor 7:7-8)

Celebacy is a discipline, not a dogma. And it is not to be seen as a a judgment point. (Whether he is a formindable leader if he is married or not. ) Celebacy is to be seen as a gift into the priesthood because, Christ himself said that the priesthood isnt for all men. They must be called.

And there have been instances when good protestant pastors converted and have been able to keep their wives.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Convert4888

[Budge]

Homosexuals--known as active or not, are not allowed to teach or preach in my chruch. If a man is found to be enagaging in homosexual behavior, he would be asked to leave, until he repented and definitely removed from a position of ministry. [quote]

And anyway what kind of statistics is 30%-65%. Please quote the source on this one because I need a good laugh this morning.[/quote]

[url="http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=2791"]LIST OF GAY BISHOPS..>TRUST US TO FIX THINGS?[/url]

[url="http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020823_RealCruxofCrisis.html"]THE REAL CRUX OF THE PROBLEM[/url]

[img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1566252652.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V56598034_.jpg[/img]

[quote]AUTHORS CLAIM CATHOLIC SEX ABUSE NOTHING NEW

LOS ANGELES, April 21 /U.S. Newswire/ -- As moviegoers await the release of the fictional thriller "The DaVinci Code," the authentic existence of secrecy within the Catholic Church is exposed in "Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse" (Volt Press, $29.95).

[u]Authors Thomas P. Doyle, A.W.R. Sipe and Patrick J. Wall provide extensive documentation -- much of which has never before been published -- indicating that sexual abuse of minors and vulnerable adults by Catholic clergy not only spans the Church's history, but has in fact, been well-known and protected by its hierarchy for centuries. It illustrates the depth of the Church's awareness of this issue; its concerns, failures and tactics for addressing the problem; and its methods of keeping it secret.[/u]

The authors begin their survey in 60 CE, concluding with the contemporary scandal. Since this issue first ignited public concern in the 1980s, exponential reports of abuse continue to surface around the world. Church officials have long maintained they were not previously aware of such misconduct, but "Sex, Priests, and Secret Codes" shows even a cursory examination of Church documents proves they had a constant knowledge, and used various tactics to protect their image.[/quote]

[quote]
bullet Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy, chastity, and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic.[size=5] He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. 5 Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation. [/size]6 He told the Boston Globe: "If they were to eliminate all those who were homosexually oriented, the number would be so staggering that it would be like an atomic bomb; it would do the same damage to the church's operation...It would mean the resignation of at least a third of the bishops of the world. And it's very much against the tradition of the church; many saints had a gay orientation, and many popes had gay orientations. Discriminating against orientation is not going to solve the problem."[/quote]

[quote][size=4]Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that “the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.” 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates [u]that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.[/u][/size][/quote]

[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm"]PERCENTAGE OF GAY PRIESTS[/url]

so are you going to deal with this or keep denying it?

THESE ARE [b]CATHOLICS[/b] THAT admit WHAT IS GOING ON.

[img]http://www.cms.pentalk.org/images/public/stock/vetcall/head%20in%20sand.jpg[/img]

[chris]

You act like we condone this or keep ourselves hidden from all this. We understand that its not the Church that has these issues, The church is protected against the gates of hell. Its her members that are sinful and make mistakes. Remeber, that protestant theater isnt without her problems either. And anyone who wants to see the church fall would be happy to write a book about this stuff.

My questions is why would you wanna fight against the church of GOD? Bring out all her problems and embarasse her and still call yourselves good christians?

Edited September 4, 2006 by Convert4888

[Budge]

Yes there are Prot churches that have problems.

Elsewhere I have posted AGAINST Dominion theology, Televangelists like Benny Hinn, and much more. I dont excuse the acceptance of homosexuality in liberal churches.

Why do you get upset by those who talk about these things including fellow Catholics?

[quote]The church is protected against the gates of hell. Its her members that are sinful and make mistakes.[/quote]

[b]In this case its the LEADERS[/b]. The rate of homosexuality among Catholic laity is about the same for Protestants and rest of world.

Oh and WHAT is the gates of hell prevailing?

I always hear Catholics say that line, but do you know what it means?

if preaching antichrist interfaithism and having your church run by reporbates isnt it? What is?

[XIX]

So you do think the Church condones homosexuality.

I suggest you read Theology of the Body by JP2.

You have effectively proven my original point.