Letting go

[Marieteresa]

For all your discerners and those entering out there I just wanted to know was it difficult for you guys to let go of your worldly relationships? Also if you couldn't handle that would you just cut your losses and look at another monastery?

Edited September 3, 2006 by Marieteresa

[zunshynn]

I'm kind of confused by what you mean by "worldly relationships". I assumed at first that you meant worldly romantic relationships. But then I don't know what looking at another monastery would do.

But perhaps you meant relationships in general with people in the world. In that case yes, it's hard. There is a certain scariness and a certain fear that comes with that, because its unfamiliar. They say your relationships grow stronger and better in religious life, even though you have less contact with them, because your relationships are centered around God. I struggle with that, because I don't understand how that can work. But I believe it, anyway, and so I'm going to try to trust God in that part of my life.

I know that if everything in my life was stripped away, and all I had was Our Lord and if he led me into the most unfamiliar situation possible, I would be absolutely terrified... But I know that he would give me the strength, and that really I'll I need is Him. I have difficulty truly abandoning myself to such a belief of course, because our natural inclination is to protect ourselves... but really... I don't know, I'm rambling.

Yes, I think it's hard... but God really will give us back a hundredfold what we give to Him. And how beautiful, to give him our relationships... so they can be made holy. Where else could be, better than that?

I don't think we can anticipate what we would do if we couldn't handle some aspect of religious life. I think we have to trust that with God, we really can handle anything, even the things that scare us the most. And if we leave... go somewhere else... do something else.... we shouldn't think of it as "cutting our losses" because he uses everything, even the things that don't last for our sanctification... and submission to His will, no matter what that means, always glorifies Him and draws us closer to Him.

Again, I'm rambling. I hope that made a semblance of sense.

Edited September 3, 2006 by zunshynn

[Marieteresa]

Thanks zunshynn, well I know at each monastery the rules for contact are different some stricter some more relaxed. Some places your allowed to call your family once a month or 6 weeks or your allowed to write friends and family once a month. I know that with each place the rules vary from place to place. Also its much more difficult to cut off relationships when you have been out here for maybe 10 or so years on ones own. Because you have grown into adulthood and the friends that one has made are friends for life. Iam just asking if you couldnt handle not talking to such a friend would you look at another place that isn't so strict.

[puellapaschalis]

I'm notorious amongst my childhood (and later) friends for being really bad at keeping in touch with people, so this will reflect in what I'm going to say.

I tend to wean myself off people (as well as other stuff, like shopping and watching tv). Or rather, the weaning off happens as a side effect of devoting more time in my day to prayer. If I want to commit to Lauds and Vespers each day, then that's between thirty and forty minutes when I'm incommunicado - my phone is off and I'm not at my computer. And if I want to get some meditation or Lectio in, then that's another half an hour. So already, that's an hour of the day - on top of the hours when I'm shut away in the library or something - when I can't go and do stuff with my friends.

But it was a choice I was offered, and one I've freely accepted: God above all. And it's not to say that I don't ever see my friends, because I do. But when I do, it means I've put extra effort into making the appointment and getting myself there, and because I likely haven't seen them in a while, we have more to catch up on. It's almost as though "absence makes the heart grow fonder".

Now I'm not a religious. But I would venture to say that perhaps something similar happens, especially with those living in enclosure.

Would I consider another house where I might be allowed more visits because of this? No - or at least, I'd like to think I wouldn't. But on the other side of the coin, I wouldn't use this reasoning to apply to a house where you have virtually no visits at all (the Carthusians spring to mind). I have to seek out the place where [i]God[/i] wants me, where my heart clicks. Something like how often my parents will come and visit me - well, I mightn't "like" it, but I'll take the whole bundle without (too much) quibbling. Or at least, I hope that I'l be able to do that.

Love and prayers,

PP

[stlmom]

Dear Marieteresa,
Some thoughts came to me as I read your post. As a married woman and mother, I don't quite qualify under the discerner label, but even in my vocation certainly some change of emphasis friendships and attachments had to take place in order to pursue my vocation properly. For instance, once married, other friendships by necessity have to become secondary to the relationship to your spouse---and that includes the whole "leaving and cleaving" thing with respect to family too. As a member of a religious community you become part of a new family, so to speak, and rules regarding relationships outside are in place to enable that transformation to occur.

Thomas Merton, as director of novices for the Trappists once wrote that the novices who retained good friends and family relationships on the outside generally were better monks on the inside. And, as I read the Gospels, I find little to support that Jesus cut himself off from friendships even as He gave Himself totally to God's will. Friendships at their best, bring us comfort and joy through the ups and downs of life regardless of the state of life chosen. It is a good and necessary part of our God given human nature.

What you seem to be asking yourself is how much could I tolerate changing the way I relate to my friends given the rules of various monastic communities? Some would say that a radical letting go of these friends is part of the sacrifice of religious life, and the more austere the rule, the greater the gift to God. We are all different in what we need in life from our friendships and the variety of forms of religious communities' rules on this matter reflect that reality. I think a healthy religious life is not that different from a healthy married life when it comes to friendships, in that one doesn't jettison them, but that the place they assume has to change to support the greater good of the vocation. Some of your friendships will go by the wayside and some will endure a lifetime no matter where your vocation leads you, but one never really knows all these things in advance. It is part of the step of faith you take in entering religious life.

By asking this question, you do not love God less, nor are you settling for less if you consider a community that permits more regular contact with friends. Good communities help you keep it all in proper perspective, and you will guide you to know which friendships do/don't help support your vocation.
God Bless and hope this made some sense after all...

[Laurentina1975]

Mariteresa,

Nothing can measure up to family and close friends and temporarily or forever cutting them off shouldn't be something in God's plan. Especially with those we love and care for. Unless, you are willing to give Him your all and your full and complete self. However, you can do that in another monastery/convent and still be close to people you have been close to all your life!

We can love God, but we must love ourselves and loving ourselves sometimes includes close tight knit healthy relationships. This is how we learn and become better people, is thru others and our relations with them. Otherwise we become hollow, shallow people...almost robotic.

Family is important, good friends are important.

All will be well...

Lauren

[TheresaMF]

[b]For all your discerners and those entering out there I just wanted to know was it difficult for you guys to let go of your [[s]worldly[/s]] relationships?[/b]

During the first week or so of my Aspirancy at the Dominican Monastery of St. Jude, the reality of sacrifice really came home to me. Before I had mostly thought about the joy and excitement of being God's and living all for Him, the zeal I had seen shining in the faces of the novices at my parish and in communities I had visited. Sacrifice? No, joy! But wait--never to sit in the kitchen and talk to my Mom at length about whatever topic while we cook or do dishes? Never to run across the back fields with my little sisters? Nope. Never. I would have tears running down my face, just there in the monastery, going about my business.

Once I adjusted a bit more to the life, I stopped being sad, although I think there is a sadness in leaving family and friends with such absoluteness. But I'm not totally cut off. My mom says she will write once a week. I will write my family once a month, as I am allowed, and friends sometime between 1 and 4 times a year, depending on the friendship and on circumstances. My very best friend is HORRIBLE as communicating, so if she sends me a Christmas letter ever year I will feel enourmously blessed. I expect to get some other letters as well, and I hope I am allowed to send out lots and lots of Christmas letters at Christmas to keep in touch with people.

In the end though, it's about Jesus. He is the underlying current that flows under the surface of everyday life in the monastery. There's a point where the little gossipy goings-on of every day are beautiful in God's hands, but are simply the gossamer feathers drifting on the surface of the still waters that run deep. Jesus is there, and He takes the prayer of our life and uses that in the lives of our loved ones, and this unity we have with them in Our Lord must be better and more intimate than a daily exchange of events, insights, and ideas. (Ok, I'm getting too "eloquent" here.) How can I say it? Just that getting a letter from my Mom was exciting, but not earth-shattering; and writing one in return, I realized that my few words about trivialities couldn't express the presence of Our Lord in my heart.

After Mass this morning I told one of the novices that I appreciated sacrifice more now, after my Aspirancy. He replied by assuring me that their joy as novices is indeed real, that when you leave the world behind it's like shedding the layers of an onion--you get down to the core, to what really matters. So I think that's what I said above? It remains to be seen whether I can "handle it" or not. All for Jesus and Mary.

[b]Also if you couldn't handle that would you just cut your losses and look at another monastery?[/b]

It strikes me that if a person is just repelled by the level of giving up required by a monastery, and they pray about it and give themselves and their vocation repeatedly to Jesus and Mary, all of themselves, at Their disposal, yet they STILL feel like they really can't deal with it, then perhaps they are 1) not called to that monastery 2) or at least not right now (a little more growing maybe) or 3) called to a more active congregation with less separation.

I don't know how much of that would apply to you or to me IRL. Just my first impression of the issue.

[TheresaMF]

Rereading the responses, I agree with stlmom: [quote]I think a healthy religious life is not that different from a healthy married life when it comes to friendships, [b]in that one doesn't jettison them, but that the place they assume has to change to support the greater good of the vocation.[/b] Some of your friendships will go by the wayside and some will endure a lifetime no matter where your vocation leads you.[/quote] And with Laurentina who says friendships don't need to be "cut off." Don't they change? The nuns at my monastery maintain many good friendships with people they knew, relatives, people they have come to know. They're just not "everday" friendships, but long-term, once-every-few-years friendships that like in my post above "run underneath" not on the surface.

[Marieteresa]

Thanks guys for all your helpful responses,
I tend to think that each situation is differnt just like each person is different. Some people have been astranged from their parents, siblings and have made their family where they are. And with that those individuals have become their sisters or brothers. I know that some people have not been in that situation so they do not understand this. But its hard to think if you were in that particular situation that you would basically have no one to write except at a particular holiday. Also most people tend to think out of sight out of mind...and your forgotten in a sense. I really don't think that most people would want to write to someone whom they would only get to hear from once a year or so. I am just saying realistically

[zunshynn]

You're right, most people wouldn't want to write to someone they'll only hear from once a year. But the people that truly love you will. That is realistic. At OLAM, and lockport probably, and I'm sure at every other monastery, the sisters do keep close to the people that matter to them.

I realize that alot of people I long considered close friends are perhaps not, and that after I leave, I will probably never see them and maybe never hear from them again. But I realize we really weren't that close. And it almost surprised me a little, which friends I know I will stay in touch with and which ones I probably won't. To most other people, I will be forgotten... but that doesn't mean I'll care about them less. I pray that in spite of my human weakness, God will still know that I care and keep them close to His heart.

And Laurentina... I wouldn't disagree with you that family and friends and close relationships aren't important, but something does measure up to that and far surpass it, and that's God. Ending physical contact temporarily or forever MAY be in God's plan for some individuals. He did say that anyone who gave up father and mother, etc. for His sake will be given back a hundredfold, and that we mustn't look back.

Furthermore, don't we all have have to be willing to give him our whole and complete self? And doesn't that mean following His will wherever it may lead, not just any other monastery/convent? Some communities do have different rules for communication, but that doesn't mean we should be seeking whichever one has rules that suits us. And the ones with stricter rules for communication, in no way stops them from being close to the ones they love. Sr. Ruth Marie from OLAM wrote a beautiful short piece about this for the OLAM website. You might enjoy reading it: [url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/nuns_ruth.htm"]Family Love[/url].

Theresa, I think you have a good point, about how the "talking" of relationships becomes less important. Sometimes are words aren't enough to hold a relationship. Like how really good friends don't even need to say anything, to provide solace, or whatever for the other. They just know. That's kind of the test of a true friendship I guess...

[Marieteresa]

Iam just wondering zunshyn, although i did get a chance to visit OLAM can you please let us know what there policies are for writing individuals. I know Easter and Christmas that one is allowed to send letters to friends because sr. Lauren sent me a letter this past Easter. I am just wondering how they do it there.

[zunshynn]

Sure. Actually, normally the sisters do not write friends at Easter. I believe they'd have to get special permission from Mother Vicar to write to people outside of Christmastime. She sent me a letter in February, because I'd sent her one, thinking she could write people at Easter, but she told me normally they can only write at Christmas, but Mother Vicar allowed her to write me for the project I was doing.

From Christmas to Epiphany they can write whoever they'd like. Otherwise, they ask permission, which, from what I understand, Mother Vicar usually grants. They are allowed to recieve mail any time (at least for Externs... I'm not sure if the cloistered sisters get theirs right away) although I imagine they wouldn't want it to get too excessive.

They can send a letter to their immediate families each month, and they can also get a letter from them every month. (Although OLAM Dad might know more than I about getting mail more than once a month from family, what with all the coffee he seems to send : )

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1056057' date='Sep 3 2006, 01:29 PM']
Thanks zunshynn, well I know at each monastery the rules for contact are different some stricter some more relaxed. Some places your allowed to call your family once a month or 6 weeks or your allowed to write friends and family once a month. I know that with each place the rules vary from place to place. Also its much more difficult to cut off relationships when you have been out here for maybe 10 or so years on ones own. Because you have grown into adulthood and the friends that one has made are friends for life. Iam just asking if you couldnt handle not talking to such a friend would you look at another place that isn't so strict.
[/quote]
Originally I planned to respond at this point though I think it may be better that I wait until the end. My original response was going to be: No. But that's not a hard answer. There are, I'm sure, exceptions to my response.

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1056070' date='Sep 3 2006, 02:05 PM']
I'm notorious amongst my childhood (and later) friends for being really bad at keeping in touch with people, so this will reflect in what I'm going to say.

I tend to wean myself off people (as well as other stuff, like shopping and watching tv). Or rather, the weaning off happens as a side effect of devoting more time in my day to prayer. If I want to commit to Lauds and Vespers each day, then that's between thirty and forty minutes when I'm incommunicado - my phone is off and I'm not at my computer. And if I want to get some meditation or Lectio in, then that's another half an hour. So already, that's an hour of the day - on top of the hours when I'm shut away in the library or something - when I can't go and do stuff with my friends.

[b]But it was a choice I was offered, and one I've freely accepted: God above all. And it's not to say that I don't ever see my friends, because I do. But when I do, it means I've put extra effort into making the appointment and getting myself there, and because I likely haven't seen them in a while, we have more to catch up on. It's almost as though "absence makes the heart grow fonder".[/b]

Now I'm not a religious. But I would venture to say that perhaps something similar happens, especially with those living in enclosure.

[b]Would I consider another house where I might be allowed more visits because of this? No - or at least, I'd like to think I wouldn't. But on the other side of the coin, I wouldn't use this reasoning to apply to a house where you have virtually no visits at all (the Carthusians spring to mind). I have to seek out the place where [i]God[/i] wants me, where my heart clicks. Something like how often my parents will come and visit me - well, I mightn't "like" it, but I'll take the whole bundle without (too much) quibbling. Or at least, I hope that I'l be able to do that.[/b]

Love and prayers,

PP
[/quote]
the bolded sections stuck out to me most. (emphasis being my own, of course.) those friends that i do not see or speak with on a regular basis are often my closest friends. i enjoy my time with them more when i finally do see them because it is so valuable. we often have much to say but surprisingly enough, end up talking about the normal things. i love the feeling of having talked just yesterday even after a year of not speaking! (though i certainly would not promote not speaking to your friends if it would be possible to do so.)

[quote name='stlmom' post='1056095' date='Sep 3 2006, 03:07 PM']
Dear Marieteresa,
Some thoughts came to me as I read your post. As a married woman and mother, I don't quite qualify under the discerner label, but even in my vocation certainly some change of emphasis friendships and attachments had to take place in order to pursue my vocation properly. For instance, once married, other friendships by necessity have to become secondary to the relationship to your spouse---and that includes the whole "leaving and cleaving" thing with respect to family too. As a member of a religious community you become part of a new family, so to speak, and rules regarding relationships outside are in place to enable that transformation to occur.

Thomas Merton, as director of novices for the Trappists once wrote that the novices who retained good friends and family relationships on the outside generally were better monks on the inside. And, as I read the Gospels, I find little to support that Jesus cut himself off from friendships even as He gave Himself totally to God's will. Friendships at their best, bring us comfort and joy through the ups and downs of life regardless of the state of life chosen. It is a good and necessary part of our God given human nature.

What you seem to be asking yourself is how much could I tolerate changing the way I relate to my friends given the rules of various monastic communities? Some would say that a radical letting go of these friends is part of the sacrifice of religious life, and the more austere the rule, the greater the gift to God. We are all different in what we need in life from our friendships and the variety of forms of religious communities' rules on this matter reflect that reality. I think a healthy religious life is not that different from a healthy married life when it comes to friendships, in that one doesn't jettison them, but that the place they assume has to change to support the greater good of the vocation. Some of your friendships will go by the wayside and some will endure a lifetime no matter where your vocation leads you, but one never really knows all these things in advance. It is part of the step of faith you take in entering religious life.

By asking this question, you do not love God less, nor are you settling for less if you consider a community that permits more regular contact with friends. Good communities help you keep it all in proper perspective, and you will guide you to know which friendships do/don't help support your vocation.
God Bless and hope this made some sense after all...
[/quote]
Everything that she said I second...

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1056141' date='Sep 3 2006, 04:47 PM']
Thanks guys for all your helpful responses,
I tend to think that each situation is differnt just like each person is different. Some people have been astranged from their parents, siblings and have made their family where they are. And with that those individuals have become their sisters or brothers. I know that some people have not been in that situation so they do not understand this. But its hard to think if you were in that particular situation that you would basically have no one to write except at a particular holiday. Also most people tend to think out of sight out of mind...and your forgotten in a sense. I really don't think that most people would want to write to someone whom they would only get to hear from once a year or so. I am just saying realistically
[/quote]
It is good to look at things in a realistic way. However, it would not be good if you let the reality of life bum you out. If you were to married to a man and you moved with him to Colorado (and your friends were, say, in New Jersey), would you speak with them a lot? Would it be every day? Every week? Every month? Life catches up to everyone and if you aren't within a relatively short distance, it is hard to maintain that kind of relationship. You have to accept them morphing into something different - and often more mature. I do not mean to assume to know what you are talking about, but I do speak as one who has many friends that do not live near me and that I do not speak with as often as I might like.

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1056157' date='Sep 3 2006, 05:19 PM']
[b]You're right, most people wouldn't want to write to someone they'll only hear from once a year. But the people that truly love you will. That is realistic. At OLAM, and lockport probably, and I'm sure at every other monastery, the sisters do keep close to the people that matter to them. [/b]

I realize that alot of people I long considered close friends are perhaps not, and that after I leave, I will probably never see them and maybe never hear from them again. But I realize we really weren't that close. And it almost surprised me a little, which friends I know I will stay in touch with and which ones I probably won't. To most other people, I will be forgotten... but that doesn't mean I'll care about them less. I pray that in spite of my human weakness, God will still know that I care and keep them close to His heart.

And Laurentina... I wouldn't disagree with you that family and friends and close relationships aren't important, but something does measure up to that and far surpass it, and that's God. Ending physical contact temporarily or forever MAY be in God's plan for some individuals. He did say that anyone who gave up father and mother, etc. for His sake will be given back a hundredfold, and that we mustn't look back.

[b]Furthermore, don't we all have have to be willing to give him our whole and complete self? And doesn't that mean following His will wherever it may lead, not just any other monastery/convent? Some communities do have different rules for communication, but that doesn't mean we should be seeking whichever one has rules that suits us. And the ones with stricter rules for communication, in no way stops them from being close to the ones they love. Sr. Ruth Marie from OLAM wrote a beautiful short piece about this for the OLAM website. You might enjoy reading it: [url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/nuns_ruth.htm"]Family Love[/url].

Theresa, I think you have a good point, about how the "talking" of relationships becomes less important. Sometimes are words aren't enough to hold a relationship. Like how really good friends don't even need to say anything, to provide solace, or whatever for the other. They just know. That's kind of the test of a true friendship I guess... [/b]
[/quote]
Again, emphasis my own. I would whole heartedly second the two bolded sections, especially the later of the two. Surely you are aware, on some level, the truth in the first bolded section. I would challenge you to think of what zunshynn has said in the second bolded section each time you want to be bummed out about communication 'restrictions'.

Each person I have quoted has hit on points I wanted to make after reading through your posts - though they have probably said it in a much clearer than ever I could. The only other thing I want to point out though is the word restriction. I'm not sure how many times it's been used in this thread but you know as well as I do the negative connotation that comes with the word. Let's not think of it as a restriction but rather an open door. By 'restricting' you in your contact with your friends, they open doors for you to grow in holiness, focus more on God, rely more on your new family, and focus on yourself. Yes, yourself! A vocation to the religious life is, on some level, about you. It is about you loving and serving God in a way that is so radical, I can't believe how many say, 'Yes'! They shut a window to open a door. And again, those who love you most will not leave you. Which is comforting because your new family will be able to love you on a level that I dare say few have in your life!

Ah, I feel very confident in saying that many gates will open for you if you do not run from your best fit because of this 'restriction'. How much love you will feel!

Focus on the most important aspects of choosing a community and the rest will fall into place, though perhaps not in your desired timing. Worry not about the things which are temporal but those that are eternal.

And... take this with a grain of salt. I know that these things are easier said than done.

[zunshynn]

[quote]Each person I have quoted has hit on points I wanted to make after reading through your posts - though they have probably said it in a much clearer than ever I could. The only other thing I want to point out though is the word restriction. I'm not sure how many times it's been used in this thread but you know as well as I do the negative connotation that comes with the word. Let's not think of it as a restriction but rather an open door. By 'restricting' you in your contact with your friends, they open doors for you to grow in holiness, focus more on God, rely more on your new family, and focus on yourself. Yes, yourself! A vocation to the religious life is, on some level, about you. It is about you loving and serving God in a way that is so radical, I can't believe how many say, 'Yes'! They shut a window to open a door. And again, those who love you most will not leave you. Which is comforting because your new family will be able to love you on a level that I dare say few have in your life![/quote]

Wow. Beautifully said. She's right... restriction doesn't say it in its fullness. Perhaps kind of like how someone who is not Christian might think of Christian morality as "rules" and "restrictions" but really, we find in our life with Christ how liberating it is, and how fulfilling, and how much peace it brings...

[Marieteresa]

wowzer, I was floored at the length of your post. I am fully aware of all the restrictions that religious life holds and i accept them to a point. I understand the restrictions are put there for a reason so that a sister maynot be writing to a thousand and one individuals...i understand that. But circumstances vary from individual to individual...not all of use have parents that are living, some of us are estranged from blood relatives. I mean what if both your parents were dead and you had no siblings would that mean that you will only be able to write to your "adopted family" once a year. It seems like there is no room for exceptions just regulations. I know most of you guys probably don't understand because they aren't in that situation. I mean would any of you choose to write to a close sister of yours only once a year?