This doesnt even LOOK real

[CatholicCid]

I'm confused as to what the debate is O_o? Any help please?

[journeyman]

Budge thinks the veil is a fake, so the Church, by allowing it, is also a fake.

(Budge, have I summarized your point accurately?)

[batteddy]

Yeah...I don't think this is the real one. I think this is at best a copy, and the real one is at St. Peter's in Rome.

But does it really matter if it is real, Budge?

You seem to not grasp what we mean when we say "Truth".

Truth, in our religious sense, is anything we can believe with the "certainty of faith". Only Dogmas.

Anything else...may or may not be true. Memories can fool people, events in history can be misrecorded, our senses can fool us. We can only say with absolute certainty that God will not fool us. Anything else might: reason, senses, history, other people, demons.

The authenticity of this holy face image is not a dogma, nor can it be the subject of dogma. But if it doesn't contradict any dogmas...who really cares? Anything that doesn't contradict dogma COULD be true. And if it could be true, and leads people closer to God...well, who really cares if it is historical as long as it could be? No matter how stretched that possibility is, something may be believed as long as it doesn't contradict our doctrine.

It may be [i]foolish[/i] or [i]naive[/i] to believe in something in the face of overwhelming evidence, but it's still possible as long as it doesn't contradict faith.

The Church really doesn't make declarations on Scientific, Historical, or even Mathematical "facts". To the Church, the only Truth that she feels is absolutely certain, the only one she feels a need to enforce, is the Truth of Faith. All other historical, scientific, and personal facts...people are free to believe whatever they want, because it's all possible (as long as it doesnt contradict doctrine) though surely some possibilities are more likely than others.

So...I should not say I "don't believe" that this is the real one. I should say that I find it it "unlikely".

But the Church is not in the bussiness of stopping people from believing non-doctrinal things just because they are "[i]unlikely[/i] to be true". She is in the bussiness of stopping people from believing things that are "[u]certainly[/u] untrue"...ie, things that are heresy and contradict Dogma, the only things in which we can have the Certainty of Faith.

If you want to believe in unicorns on a flat earth revolving around the moon with a purple sky...the Church really doesn't care as long as you havent contradicted any religious truths or been dishonest in doing so. She may recommend against it (because it makes you look really foolish) but if you are convinced that it is at least possible...fine. And if it brings you closer to God, she'd even encourage it.

Edited September 4, 2006 by batteddy

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056221' date='Sep 3 2006, 07:01 PM']
NO.
Oh do they have another veil or two? [wouldnt doubt it]

Theres two houses of Mary, and Theres two arms of this saint, and two heads for this other...
[/quote]


Well either way the Church does not say one or the other is "real" or that we "must" believe it is "real."

It quite possiable that Mary did have two houses, people move, even back then.

I would hope the saint had "two arms", and two heads are better than one. But again no where does the Church, the vatican say this stuff is with out a doubt "real."

Your posts and your topics arent about truth, their to feed your hate for the Catholic Church. You do not preach the savlation of Christ. You cant agree with us on anything. Doing that would destroy your whole little world of make believe.

[Budge]

[quote]
If you want to believe in unicorns on a flat earth revolving around the moon with a purple sky...the Church really doesn't care as long as you havent contradicted any religious truths or been dishonest in doing so. [u]She may recommend against it (because it makes you look really foolish) but if you are convinced that it is at least possible...fine. And if it brings you closer to God, she'd even encourage it.[/u][/quote]

Thats a problem.

The Catholic leadership doesnt even care if its people are victims of charlatans and LIARS.

Do you realize what the Bible says about LIARS? {people who make up seeing Mary in trees or those who paint pictures they say are the face of Jesus Christ from the supposed veil at the crucifix}

Pro 17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; [and] a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

I know for a fact these foolish legends lead many into unbelief and atheism. When I was young, I could see right through half of these folktales, they actually led me AWAY from God.

[quote]Budge thinks the veil is a fake, so the Church, by allowing it, is also a fake.[/quote]

Your Pope backed it up just by being there. He doesnt care if people are being fooled either.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Budge

[batteddy]

[quote]The Catholic leadership doesnt even care if its people are victims of charlatans and LIARS.[/quote]

Define "victims". These people don't seem to be "victims". They have a devotion to something that leads them closer to God and comforts them without contradicting dogma. They don't seem to be victims.

The Church doesn't want people to be Liars, and if this was a delibrate fake to make money...the original Liar will be punished for it and would be condemned by the Church for saying something they knew was untrue.

But the original "liar" is long dead, so it doesnt really matter anymore.

And most often in these cases, there is no lying actually involved. It starts out just as a piece of art and then overtime the story sort of, unintentionally, gets gradually embellished.

Like I said, the Church doesn't stop people from believing in scientific, personal, or historical "facts" just because she finds them "unlikely". The only thing she can condemn with the certainty of Faith is heresy against defined religious doctrine.

In rare cases, if she finds a scientific, personal, or historical idea to be [u]potentially threatening [/u] to the faith, even though not yet heresy in itself, she might take action to try to suppress the idea as "dangerous" to the faith. But she'll never condemn it dogmatically in an absolute way, because such things are still potentially possible and reconcillable with the faith. Such is the Galilleo incident.

But there is nothing dangerous to the faith about this Veil. It seems to cause piety in some people, and we can't say with the certainty of faith that it isn't true...so it might be. The Church isn't going to speak on this much more than it is going to speak on whether Charlemagne had 52,000 men in his army, or 56,000. We can't know with the certainty of faith, and it isn't dangerous to the faith to believe either way...it might even help some people to believe one way or another...so, who really cares? Not us.

It may lead some people away from God, but that's too bad...that's a problem with their perspective, not the Church's. Why they place unofficial claims about merely "unlikely" things as harmful to their faith...is beyond me. What matters is official dogmatic teaching. Popular piety, if it stays within the bounds of Dogma, can be religiously healthy even if some of their non-supernatural ideas seem unlikely to you.

Edited September 4, 2006 by batteddy

[Budge]

[quote]he Catholic leadership doesnt even care if its people are victims of charlatans and LIARS.


Define "victims". These people don't seem to be "victims". They have a devotion to something that leads them closer to God and comforts them without contradicting dogma. They don't seem to be victims.[/quote]

You dont even care that these people are being LIED to!

and obviously neither does your Pope. Your Pope is a smart enough man, to know that veil is simply a bad rendering.

[quote]But the original "liar" is long dead, so it doesnt really matter anymore.[/quote]

YES it does, because these people believe an UNTRUTH.

They are venerating and believing something that is NOT TRUE.
[quote]
And most often in these cases, there is no lying actually involved. It starts out just as a piece of art and then overtime the story sort of, unintentionally, gets gradually embellished.[/quote]

That is a LIE.
[quote]
Like I said, the Church doesn't stop people from believing in scientific, personal, or historical "facts" just because she finds them "unlikely". The only thing she can condemn with the certainty of Faith is heresy against defined religious doctrine.[/quote]

Your church doesnt care if people are deluded beleiving in a lie.
[quote]
But there is nothing dangerous to the faith about this Veil. It seems to cause piety in some people, and we can't say with the certainty of faith that it isn't true...so it might be. The Church isn't going to speak on this much more than it is going to speak on whether Charlemagne had 52,000 men in his army, or 56,000. We can't know with the certainty of faith, and it isn't dangerous to the faith to believe either way...it might even help some people to believe one way or another...so, who really cares? Not us.
[/quote]

Yes it is dangerous, it is dangerous even in that fact that it makes Christianity look foolish to unbelievers.

It is dangerous in the fact that people are trained to put faith in legends, myths and LIES, instead of seeking the truth in God.

[quote]. What matters is official dogmatic teaching.[/quote]

Lying is a sin. Popular piety is an excuse phrase for the fact that Rome does not care if its people follow falsehoods.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056055' date='Sep 3 2006, 02:27 PM']
The church of OPTIONAL beliefs, where TRUTH doesnt matter.

So if some scam artists [in this case Thomas of the Grainery in 1200 or whatever his name was] wants to pull off some religious con job, it doesnt matter if some poor peasants are fooled.

Catholic Church: the religion based on LEGENDS and myths.

{some of you too afraid to admit you think its a put-upon too?} "Im not required to believe it" seems to me to be a cop-out for admitting you dont believe it either." Youre just too afraid your fellow Catholics will freak out.

It seems if some of your fellow Catholics were being CONNED [like they are at Mejugorje and a hundred other places like the lady who saw Mary in a tree in NJ] youd want something done about it.
[/quote]
the veil isn't central to the beliefs of the Church.

You are attacking nothing of substance because the veil is NOT ESSENTIAL TO BELIEF IN CATHOLICISM.

Why don't you stick to those things that actually matter, like the Eucharist, the status of Mary, the authority of the pope, or the veneration of the saints?

Please, you do yourself a disservice by attacking things that are of no consequence.

[Budge]

[quote]
the veil isn't central to the beliefs of the Church.
[/quote]

So what if it is central or not?

Your Pope was there supporting it and it is obviously a hoax.

It is based on falsehoods.
[quote]

You are attacking nothing of substance because the veil is NOT ESSENTIAL TO BELIEF IN CATHOLICISM.[/quote]

Your Pope seemed to think it was something of substance, paying it a visit and all.

Those poor deluded people think it is also.
[quote]
Why don't you stick to those things that actually matter, like the Eucharist, the status of Mary, the authority of the pope, or the veneration of the saints?[/quote]

Because these things are happening too and they are inexcuseable. I think it is sad that people here are so much into defense mode, they dont even care that their fellow Catholics are being fooled.

Tells me you must not really care that much about your church mates.

If a bunch of Baptists were being hoodwinked; like say by Benny Hinn, I would be exposing that wickedness, I wouldnt be excusing it like some here seem so inclined to do.

You dont even care if this thing is PHONY or not.

My faith is based on REAL THINGS, not legends and myths. I am disgusted by those who LIE using God to bolster their LIES.
[quote]
Please, you do yourself a disservice by attacking things that are of no consequence.
[/quote]

I believe it is of consquence. People are being fooled. People are putting faith in a false scrap of clothe.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056524' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:23 PM']
So what if it is central or not?

Your Pope was there supporting it and it is obviously a hoax.

It is based on falsehoods.
Your Pope seemed to think it was something of substance, paying it a visit and all.

Those poor deluded people think it is also.
Because these things are happening too and they are inexcuseable. I think it is sad that people here are so much into defense mode, they dont even care that their fellow Catholics are being fooled.

Tells me you must not really care that much about your church mates.

If a bunch of Baptists were being hoodwinked; like say by Benny Hinn, I would be exposing that wickedness, I wouldnt be excusing it like some here seem so inclined to do.

You dont even care if this thing is PHONY or not.

My faith is based on REAL THINGS, not legends and myths. I am disgusted by those who LIE using God to bolster their LIES.
I believe it is of consquence. People are being fooled. People are putting faith in a false scrap of clothe.
[/quote]
you don't understand what I mean when I say the veil is of no consequence.

There are some very basic things you must believe in order to be Catholic. The Eucharist, the perpetual virginity and assumption of Mary, the authority of the Church on Earth in the person of the pope, the Sacraments, etc. etc. etc.

This veil, be it artwork or miracle, is not on par with those beliefs. It does not rise to the level of a belief. It is an extra. A superfluous bit of faith that doesn't harm or help the religion in any major way. It means absolutely nothing beyond what it is: a picture of Our Lord in His Suffering.

If the veil is proven to be a hoax, the essential and timeless beliefs of the Church are not affected in any way. The Church does not make pronouncements about things like this lightly. Were the pope to infallibly declare the veil the authentic veil of Veronica, we might have a problem. But...the pope is not dumb and he knows that his infallibility does not extend to things that are not central matters of faith and morals. The veil simply does not qualify as such, and you are wasting time attacking it.

I just don't like to see you get all worked up, Budgeykins. Save the vitriole for the things that [b]really[/b] challenge your beliefs, like the reality of the Eucharist. Or, is your belief structure so caught up in what [i]appears[/i] to be going on that you have no deeper argument with the Church? Perhaps you rail against this eensy weensy point because you can't answer the Truths of the Faith and have chosen to get caught up in 'details.'

I suppose if the extent of your Faith is saying the sinner's prayer and throwing out of context Biblical quotes in people's faces, or some other such nonsense, then you would be understandably upset about what appears to be empty-headed piety directed towards an image of Our Lord.

[batteddy]

[quote]YES it does, because these people believe an UNTRUTH.

They are venerating and believing something that is NOT TRUE. [/quote]

Like I said...we cannot say it is "untruth" in the most absolute sense of the word. Only contradiction of absolutely certain Dogma is our concern.

This may be "unlikely"...but that's not our concern anymore than people believing in Acupuncture.

I may find the medical value of acupunture unlikely, but I can't say so with the certainty of faith. I may think that people are being naive to believe it...but as long as they don't contradict any dogmas or invoke any evil spirits in doing so...it's really not a religious concern.

Historians and scientists can fight these out. On a religious level, it doesn't matter. If it doesn't contradict, or threaten to contradict, defined doctrine...it's really not the Church's place to condemn or suppress.

[quote]Your church doesnt care if people are deluded beleiving in a lie.[/quote]

Yes, it does. But lies within her sphere: religion. Historically, she cannot say for sure whether this is a lie or not. It may seem very unlikely to you, but it's really not her place to go around condemning merely natural historical improbabilities. It is her place to condemn heresy: things absolutely certain to be untrue. Not historical or scientific things that are merely "most probably untrue" but which don't touch on the dogmas of the Faith. As people pointed out...this veil is a scientific and historical debate, really, not anything essential to the dogmas of the Faith.

Edited September 4, 2006 by batteddy

[DiscerningSoul]

the pic shown doesn't look real to me, sorry

[Budge]

[quote]
Like I said...we cannot say it is "untruth" in the most absolute sense of the word. Only contradiction of absolutely certain Dogma is our concern.[/quote]


That is a strawman that "it doesnt matter" just because it is not a certain dogma being dealt with.

In other words you dont care that these Catholic people are being snookered.

This is why SUPERSTITION reigns in Catholicism. American Catholics dont realize how bad superstition is in Catholicism overseas.

[url="http://www.sxws.com/charis/odds1.htm"]CATHOLIC CLERGY DONT CARE EITHER WHEN THEIR FLOCK IS BEING FOOLED[/url]

[url="http://www.sxws.com/charis/relics1.htm"]THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WITH ITS FETISHES, AMULETS AND SUPERSTITION[/url]

[quote][size=5]Rome is so caught up in the worship of spirits and things that they like to keep relics in their churches, chapels, shrines, and similar places.[/size] Shoot! There is a scrap of rag, or a shrivelled up body part, or splinter of wood or some other things once belonging to a "saint" or martyr in most permanent altars maintained by Rome. [/quote]

[batteddy]

[quote]In other words you dont care that these Catholic people are being snookered.[/quote]

I'd only care if the "snookering" were harming them, or if it was Heresy. But just believing something that is unlikely is not costing them anything. If I can't be sure it isn't true, and they think it helps them...who am I to question it? At least from a religious standpoint. I might question them on a scientific or historical standpoint, but the Church has no authority to speak in those areas. If there is a pious history there...who is the Church to suddenly declare it isnt true? How does she know? That's not her area of expertise.

[stbernardLT]

Congragulations you actually agree with the church, because we believe the real one is in Rome. So I guess for once you are right.