Ritualism Leads People AWAY from God

[Budge]

[quote]"[size=4]Romanism is largely a religion of ceremonials and rituals, and as such it is a far departure from the purity and simplicity of the gospel. [/size]The suppose blessing is mysterious and magical. No really intelligent participation is required on part of the people. They are largely spectators watching the pageantry and are supposed to be blessed just because they are there.
[size=4]
Elaborate ritual and ceremony, which theoretically are designed to aid the worshipper, have the opposite affect in that they tend to take the mind away from things which are spiritual and eternal and to center it on that is material and temporal. Artistic ritual and exquisite music often become ends in themselves and can easly become instruments which prevent the people from joining in the worship of God.[/size] The reason the Roman service tends to become more and more elaborate, liturgical and ritualistic is that the heart of the exercise true adoration of God, is missing and a persistent effortis made to fill the emptiness and unsatisfactoriness of it all by piling one ceremony and ritual upon anohther. But ironically, the more that is done, the more difficult it becomes to worship God, and so the vicious cycle goes round and round.[/quote]

[img]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/benodette/07CandlesMassDeceasedCardsNov1105AB.jpg[/img]

[b]Hbr 10:11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[/b]

[brendan1104]

Budge, you knew this was going to be a debate- and this isn't even worthy of an answer. As much a I love everybody, you're really starting to get on my last nerves, and several other PM'ers have told me that they agree. Why don't you go join icon busters or something, and leave?

[Budge]

[size=5]Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?[/size]

:

[brendan1104]

John 14: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 16: And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 28: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

John 6: Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

[Budge]

What are you giving me the Catholic list of verses?

{us Christians hear the same 4-6 over and over}

well at least this time you included John 14...

[Groo the Wanderer]

Oh Budgie, Master of unidentified quotes, misquotes, and inane postings...


Quote:

[mod]let's keep it charitable[/mod]

End Quote.


See? My quote is just as vaild and full of context as yours...and I'm not gonna attribute it to anyone relevant either. :


Give it up...try to learn truth instead of spewing hate.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Lil Red

[Budge]

: {Ive never been called mushy mud pie before, thats a new one to add to the list}

How Scatalogical of you....{new word of the day}


[font="Arial Black"]
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, [u]and their flesh as the dung.[/u][/font]

[brendan1104]

from the Council of Trent, Session 22, Canons of the Sacrifice of the Mass:

"If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathema."

And don't say anathema doesn't have a scriptural/apostolic basis:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema (or accursed)."=
Galatians, 1:8

Edited August 31, 2006 by brendan1104

[Mateo el Feo]

Groo,

Please don't post that kind of vulgarity.

Budge,

If these are not your words, could you cite your source?

Edited August 31, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1054509' date='Aug 31 2006, 02:01 PM']


[b]Hbr 10:11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[/b]
[/quote]

So what does that have to do with anything?

[kenrockthefirst]

You know, Budge, I did the "born again" thing. Not that I'm not born again. But the particular flavor of American fundamentalism / evangelicalism / Pentecostalism leaves much to be desired in terms of "simplicity of worship" or drawing anyone nearer to God. Do you really think that the rocky / poppy music much preferred in evangelical / pentecostal churches is effective at creating a reverential attitude? Or that raising one's hands and swaying back and forth, breaking out into tongues or shouting hallelujah is? Or that some preacher strutting back and forth on stage proclaiming his personal interpretation of the bible is? Or that meeting halls with folding chairs in buildings made out of breeze blocks is? I became a Catholic precisely [i]because[/i] of the vapidness and emptiness of that culture as opposed to the richness, the legacy and, yes, the profound, sublime directness of the mass with its laser beam-like focus on worshiping Jesus Christ. In addition, and in indirect response to your postings elsewhere, communion with 2000 years of Christians, as opposed to whoever the latest bad hairpiece guy is, also draws one closer to God. Give me the "smells and bells" any day of the week over the saccharine experience that is the American fundi movement.

[Anomaly]

In one perspective, putting too much emphasis on the Ritual (read Rubrics) would indeed lead someone away from God. How often have you seen Caths posting here asking "Can they do that?" "The priest/lector/acolyte/deacon said or did "X", does that make "Y" invalid?" "The priest didn't say Zs, but said Z. Did that make the Sacrament invalid?"

Can people's emphasis on the Rituals in the Catholic Religion lead them away from God?
Absolutely YES.

Is it a necessary outcome? Absolutely NO!

Can Rituals be an aid and a help to lead people to God? Absolutely YES!

Does Scripture support the use of Rituals in aiding people in their relationship with God? Yes, without a doubt. To claim otherwise would be to deny the historical acts in both the New and Old Testament.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Elaborate ritual and ceremony, which theoretically are designed to aid the worshipper, have the opposite affect in that they tend to take the mind away from things which are spiritual and eternal and to center it on that is material and temporal.[/quote]

How do things which point to God take one away from God? Why is the worship of God "simple" and what makes it so? What is a "pure gospel" and how do you intend to prove that your word on the correct understanding of the scriptures is the authoratative one? "ritualism", or the customary observance of the worship of God is built into the fabric of the Christian faith with its origin in the Jewish faith. God indeed commands this 'ritualism' or the regular worship of said God in the 10 commandments. What really irks you is the mass is ancient, as ancient as when it was instituted by Jesus Christ nearly 2000 years ago and was foreshadowed in the Passover. You can't get past the truth that the Catholic Church preaches, so you whine about 'ritualism'? What then, shall we gather in your church, sing songs, listen to the reading of the Word, pray, and listen to a sermon? Is this not a ritual of which you are a part of every Sunday (and possibly Wednesday)? Do you remember the "Lord's Supper" once a month or year? Is this not a 'ritual'? Should we not accuse you of the same "ritualism" in a different tradition? What do you find complicated about the reading of the Word of God from the Old Testament, Psalm, New Testament, and Gospel each Sunday? What do you find confusing about the words "This is my body, this is my blood"? Do you find the mass boring perhaps? Maybe you think that the worship of God should be exciting and culturally relevant to the latest modern trends? Maybe you think Sunday worship should cater to our need for an emotional high and not focus on take any work? Maybe you believe that God should be conforming His desire for worship to whatever we want? What proof then do you have to offer for your claim just because you may think your going to fall asleep in mass and can't stay awake with the Lord even one hour that it has "the opposite affect"? And how exactly do the vows of chastity, poverty, and charity that religious take lead to focus on anything temporal? Or are you so blinded that you cannot see the saints and martyrs of old? Are you too busy reading Fox's book of the martyrs that you actually believe there were no martyrs after the Apostles until the Reformation? How does an empty meeting hall with naught but maybe a cross lead people into worship of the eternal? How does it draw someone to think of the Heavenly Father for a people that were created with senses? How does the cross, or the art or the pictures of the Christian family lead one to think of 'material' things? What illogical argument are you trying to offer here? All I see are empty accusations and scripture torn out of context, which is a shame coming from someone who claims to love scripture.

[Lil Red]

brother adam, you've gotta use paragraphs! good points though

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1054655' date='Aug 31 2006, 03:27 PM']
brother adam, you've gotta use paragraphs! good points though
[/quote]School Teacher wanna be... :