Jake Huether Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Sparked on by the other thread, in which Jewish Tradition was mentioned in comparison to the Catholic Church, I descided to have a lookey at Exodus - Numbers again (where the meat of God's organization is at). Here are a few cool lines! Leviticus 4 on... "...Thus the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin, and he shall be forgiven." Leviticus 6: 5. "...you shall repay the principal amount and shall add one-fifth to it." Numbers 5:5. "The Lord spoke to Moses saying: Speak to the Israelites: When a man or a woman wrongs another, breaking faith with the Lord, that person incurs guilt and shall confess the sin that has been committed." Note: God doesn't command them to simply be sorry for their sins in their heart. He commands them to confess their sin. Why would He use the word 'confess' if it meant confess it to Him? If the person is sorry, what good is a "confession" to God, who already knows the persons sin? It is silly to believe that the Isrealits simply had to confess "straight to God". In otherwords, in private. It wouldn't make sense, since once they confessed they had to bring an offering to the priest for atonement. Like they would just go into the tent with a goat and the priest would pretend like he didn't know the person sinned!? And like I said, why would God require an addmitance to sin to Him, when He already knows they sinned. He doesn't need to hear the confession. He needs to hear that they are sorry. A confession is more than an "I'm sorry". It's a specific addmitance to a specific sin in addition to being sorry for that particular sin. Now that I think about it... Same with the NT, when the Apostles tell people to confess their sins. It can NOT mean confess to God. God already knows they sinned. If they sinned and they realize it, then at the very best, they would simply be commanded to "tell God your sorry". But they are told to confess it. God doesn't need a confession. He knows you sinned, and you know you sinned. Repent would be it. A confession only makes sense if a third party (a priest) would hear the confession, or admittance. Does that make sense to anyone? Anyway. I was just struck by the whole thing: No other denomination / sect / even religion hints at being related to the 12 Tribes. Think about it. If God is the same always and forever, even though his covenant changed, whouldn't it be characteristic of God to continue with at least a few of the "old things". If He is constant, unchanging, even though it is a new covenant, there should be some similarities. Yet, really, even the closest Protestant denomination is a far cry from what the OT describes. Catholics have insence, a real Alter, priests, vestments, ritual, chanting, singing, Sacrifice (the same one that happened 2000 years ago), atonement, confession, penance, Sacraments, forgiveness, Love, FAMILY, unity, order, discipline, doctrine, dogma, history, lineage, succession, ashes, ... I think I read just about all of that between Exodus and Numbers alone! I'm so happy to be a Catholic! It is so refreshing to be affirmed in the faith while reading the written Word of God! I love it. I will breath my last breath a Catholic! Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Catholics have insence, a real Alter, priests, vestments, ritual, chanting, singing, Sacrifice (the same one that happened 2000 years ago), atonement, confession, penance, Sacraments, forgiveness, Love, FAMILY, unity, order, discipline, doctrine, dogma, history, lineage, succession, ashes, ... Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. I think that says enough. Protestants have confession to our mediator Jesus Christ, forgiveness, love, family, unity, order, discipline, doctrine, history, faith, joy, salvation. The things given under the Spirit. Edited January 8, 2004 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. I think that says enough. Wow! Do you even read the posts before you respond? I blinked and you responded! LOL! I know the "law" changed. The covenant Changed, like I said. But God is the same now as He was 4000+ years ago. Did he just scrap the whole priest thing. The whole vestment thing. The insence and ritual. Did he all-of-a-sudden reject his old plans and strip down to a school gym, wooden podium, Bible and preacher (with suit and tie ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 This post was asking for a fight because it is set up to be attacked the way CircleM attacked it. A better way to talk about the necessity and purpose of the liturgy is comparing it to the heavenly worship at the altar in heaven that is in the Book of Revelations. This was convert and author Scott Hahn's first clue that Catholicism might be right. The mass comes directly from Scripture in both Testements. The Eastern Orthodox go further than Catholics by calling their mass the Divine Liturgy. The Jewish roots are extremely important, but the movements of Mass and the Divine Liturgy are meant to be an earthly representation of heavenly worship of the Church Triumphant before the throne of God. Those verses from Roman were a good come back for discussion's sake, but the Catholic faith and traditional interpretation puts those in a different context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 That's the point of worshipping God everywhere in Spirit now It doesn't matter what we have - it is doable. Yeah, I did have that response rather fast. I read the beginning, skimmed the middle, and read the end. I knew where it was going from the title so Scripture was already coming to mind by the time it loaded :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I recall Jesus said the law was not to be abolished, not a jot of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I recall Jesus said the law was not to be abolished, not a jot of it. a) I never said that b) Better start getting out the ceremonial washing basin and building a temple then! c) Maybe it was fulfilled and now a new covenant exists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 So you think nothing carried over from the OT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 What do you mean by nothing? The entire old testament is rich. It is a crime for anyone not to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 I didn't intend to pick a fight. I just thought I'd try to open Circles eyes a bit from a different angle, which apperantly didn't work. But it wasn't so much for that, than it was to express my own joy at being Catholic and seeing all these Biblical / Historical roots in my faith! I love being Catholic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 haha, and I love being protestant seriously though - it is great to take symbolism like that from the OT into your services. I think it could really spice up some of the services in protestantism sometimes. But - none of it is necessary (the law part) since we are under the Spirit today. Sometimes I wonder if scrapping 'everything' from the Catholic Church was the best option - or if we should have kept some as the Lutherans did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 b) Better start getting out the ceremonial washing basin and building a temple then! There is something in the mass that represents this - you should go to one as a visitor and see how biblical it really is! (We didn't pull it out of a hat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) haha, and I love being protestant seriously though - it is great to take symbolism like that from the OT into your services. I think it could really spice up some of the services in protestantism sometimes. But - none of it is necessary (the law part) since we are under the Spirit today. Sometimes I wonder if scrapping 'everything' from the Catholic Church was the best option - or if we should have kept some as the Lutherans did. I think the protestants have lost the sense of mystery and the sacred when they thru all the smells and bells out. We relate to the world thru all our senses, and we Catholics are good at that. You do have so really good preachers though. Edited January 8, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) There is something in the mass that represents this - you should go to one as a visitor and see how biblical it really is! (We didn't pull it out of a hat) Is it like the Jewish one with a stair down and a stair up? I got to see a real one over at the British Museum - it was pretty cool Edited January 8, 2004 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 circle if y'all had "kept" mary i'd probably be a protestant right now. but love being catholic, so eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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