Islamic Shariah law at work - Iran: Executing minors for being raped

[Lounge Daddy]

[b][mod][size=6]Strong language and graphic video - you have been warned![/size][/mod][/b]

[url="http://choosedoubt.blogspot.com/2006/08/iran-executing-minors-for-being-raped.html"]from BBBB... with video HERE[/url] (it's educational, interesting, fascinating, and very eye-opening… and quite graphic – so be warned)

[quote]Some time ago I reported on the Iranian execution of a 16 year old girl in Iran for crimes against chastity. Atefah was executed at 16 years old after she had been in an abusive relationship with a 50 year old man for three years. In Europe he'd be a child molester. In Iran, he got 90 lashes and she was executed - Shariah justice. The same Sharia justice that 44% of Mulsims want in the UK.

Now there's a documentary about the same and it's right there below - be warned that it contains footage of hanging and stoning. Take some time to learn about the true story of Iranian justice for abused children.[/quote]

Edited August 29, 2006 by Lil Red

[tojo]

Shariah law seems largely evil.

[zunshynn]

oh my goodness.

[Didacus]

Christ all-mighty God bring us justice.

[choose]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1052893' date='Aug 29 2006, 09:24 PM']
Christ all-mighty God bring us justice.
[/quote]

There is no justice in faith. It is faith that executed that poor girl. It is faith that corrupted the obvious truth of her as a victim into the realisation in brutal action of the vicious distortion of her as a criminal against the very same faith. There is justice only in learning to manage benefit and control loss. No rational mind, free of faith, would ever confuse the execution of the girl for a beneficial act.

It is the same cause, faith, that confuses the use of condoms in Africa as a sin - equally guilty, but on a scale of millions of lives each year. I believe someone once mentioned something about casting the first stone...

And the path to salvation is not one of suffering. It is one of learning to avoid suffering and learning not to be its cause.

Anyway, thanks for posting the link to the video on my blog. All objectors to brutality are welcome. We'll work on your reasons one small step at a time.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='choose' post='1053020' date='Aug 29 2006, 05:56 PM']There is no justice in faith. It is faith that executed that poor girl. It is faith that corrupted the obvious truth of her as a victim into the realisation in brutal action of the vicious distortion of her as a criminal against the very same faith. There is justice only in learning to manage benefit and control loss. No rational mind, free of faith, would ever confuse the execution of the girl for a beneficial act.

It is the same cause, faith, that confuses the use of condoms in Africa as a sin - equally guilty, but on a scale of millions of lives each year. I believe someone once mentioned something about casting the first stone...[/quote]
That someone who mentioned something about casting stones also said, "Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew17.htm#v20"]Matthew 17:20[/url])

In other words, it's curious that you think that you should quote the wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, while at the same time stating something like, "There is no justice in Faith," which is so antithetical to what He taught. The Holy Scripures actually describe the virtues of Justice and Faith as integral to eachother--can't have one without the other.

If you'd like to bring your own questions or critiques about religion, maybe you would consider starting a new thread with your in the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showforum=3"]debate forum[/url]. We'd be happy to discuss with you.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[avemaria40]

I'm disgusted! Their age for consent is 9? I barely hit puberty at the age of 9!

Many prayers. This is so sad

[peep]

this makes me mad. This is not the work of God. chidlren are precious and beautiful! Those kids never got the chance to choose for themselves!


I will be praying for them. May god bless the victims of this terrible "Islamic" law.

[avemaria40]

Not to mention a 13 year old who got a life sentence, LIFE SENTENCE for being raped! She only got life after human rights activists pleaded w/the govn't not to execute her.

[choose]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1053629' date='Aug 30 2006, 07:43 PM']
That someone who mentioned something about casting stones also said, "Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew17.htm#v20"]Matthew 17:20[/url])

In other words, it's curious that you think that you should quote the wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, while at the same time stating something like, "There is no justice in Faith," which is so antithetical to what He taught. The Holy Scripures actually describe the virtues of Justice and Faith as integral to eachother--can't have one without the other.

If you'd like to bring your own questions or critiques about religion, maybe you would consider starting a new thread with your in the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showforum=3"]debate forum[/url]. We'd be happy to discuss with you.
[/quote]

I think my point is quite valid. To assert faith as a credible solution to a faith inspired brutality reminded me of the casting the stone quote. You have absolutley no basis for your faith over and above that which the Muslims posses for thiers (i.e. absolutely none) and, as I pointed out with the Africa aids analogy, your faith is equally guilty and causes death and yet is supposed to be excused the requirement to explain or demonstratre itself in credible terms. The catholic excuse for condeming condom use in Africa is faith. The Islamic excuse for executing a child is also faith. You are equal in placing fatih above the most basic understanding of others lives and compassion.

I would very much like to discuss religion with you, but not here as I do not agree with the censorship that I have witnessed here. If you would like to discuss then I invite you to do so on my blog. You wll be free to say whatever you wish with no censorship. The debate will be polite but direct. You will not be insulted.

I have a current post entitled "Lost". I believe the comments section of this post would be suitable for our use. It can be found here

[color="#FF0000"]sorry but even the title of your blog is too offensive to link to. Anyone wants the blog get it by PM or email - cmom[/color]

I look forward to our conversation.

Edited August 30, 2006 by cmotherofpirl

[avemaria40]

Except African citizens have asked to learn more about abstinence and fidelity in marriage. The problem is promiscuity. Also, many women are abused there. Their husbands can cheat on them, rape them, and give them the virus and no one would think twice. Then, they pass it on to their babies. Let's get to the root of the problem and stop putting bandaids on it.

BTW, I find it worth noting that many great leaders who fought against poverty and injustice were religious people. St. Joan of Arc and Mother Teresa were Catholics, Mahatma Ghandi was devoutly Hindu, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Baptist preacher, the list goes on and on.

Also, there have been many, many atrocities committed against people in communist China, where they don't acknowledge a God, and in communist Russia as well. Not to mention the Nazis were not religious and persecuted many Catholic and Protestant leaders for speaking out against their horrible crimes, as well as making their own Bible to corrupt the people.

My point, evil actions are the problem, not religion.

Edited August 30, 2006 by avemaria40

[choose]

Invoking the reasonless brutality of other misguided people does not alleviate the failings of the faithful in a long and bloody history filled by the lives of individuals being consumed by the "higher cause" when no fact nor evidence existed to support that cause. Each and every time it was the delusion of someone that some intangible and special, yet evidenceless. truth was more worthy than the most simple respect for another life. Deflection is no defence. Neither is it an applicable defence to the stance against the use of condoms in Africa. Deflecting the cause to the percentage, whatever that may be, of individuals that are infected thanks to the violent sins of those around them does absolutely nothing to change the fact that many people, including the abused and the children, are dying because the catholic church promotes the ridiculous idea that your almighty, wise, omniscient, omnipotent and all loving, merciful god will send them to hell for eternity if they are so abusive to his composure as to take basic preventitive safety measures whilst having sex.

And yet you feel comfortable to invoke your faith and assert your superiority when confronted by the brutality of another faith with no more or no less reason to be assumed as the ultimate truth! You do not see your own hypocrisy. That is the power of your faith and that alone.

So, please feel free to visit me and discuss. Obviously discussion is impossible here due to the heavy handed censorship which has so kindly been proven already above. So make your choices and discuss your "truth" without allowing either to face open challenge. That alone is mark enough of what scrutiny your faith can withstand.

The dark ages are over. You don't have the power anymore. Now you have a responsibility to others not only through your actions but also through your thought. The real world overtook your ultimate truth and should no longer be suffering its many baseless burdens. You have a responsibility to think because the cost of your encouragement that nobody else should is being paid in lives. Exactly the same way that it has been throughout history whenever some group just happened to have their "ultimate truth" and some people to control with it.

You can find me independenty by searching choosedoubt. My blog is on blogspot. There is a discussion waiting for you.

This is how I think of you and this is exactly how I think of Islam. You are the same, except that they actually admit thier killings. So much for repenting your sins.

The first step, so I'm told, is acceptance.


PS. The Nazis, at Hitlers direction, outlawed atheism. The Nazi ideology included that the Aryan people were in fact god's special creation. Please feel free to do some research. Guess who's camp they were in?

[peep]

man, Iran's leader is weird. That makes me horribly mad!!!

May God's blessings be upon that girl who got life in prison! May someone brake her out of prison! I shall pray for her unceasingly!! Bless her!! Bless her!! May the cruelties of the hell bent hearts not effect her!

Edited August 31, 2006 by peep

[Socrates]

[quote name='choose' post='1053727' date='Aug 30 2006, 02:41 PM']
I think my point is quite valid. To assert faith as a credible solution to a faith inspired brutality reminded me of the casting the stone quote. You have absolutley no basis for your faith over and above that which the Muslims posses for thiers (i.e. absolutely none) and, as I pointed out with the Africa aids analogy, your faith is equally guilty and causes death and yet is supposed to be excused the requirement to explain or demonstratre itself in credible terms. The catholic excuse for condeming condom use in Africa is faith. The Islamic excuse for executing a child is also faith. You are equal in placing fatih above the most basic understanding of others lives and compassion.

I would very much like to discuss religion with you, but not here as I do not agree with the censorship that I have witnessed here. If you would like to discuss then I invite you to do so on my blog. You wll be free to say whatever you wish with no censorship. The debate will be polite but direct. You will not be insulted.

I have a current post entitled "Lost". I believe the comments section of this post would be suitable for our use. It can be found here

[color="#FF0000"]sorry but even the title of your blog is too offensive to link to. Anyone wants the blog get it by PM or email - cmom[/color]

I look forward to our conversation.
[/quote]
Your argument (that religious Faith by its very nature leads to atrocities) is used by pretty much every atheist that comes on these boards (and I've argued with a number of them in the past; you are hardly the first to bring this stuff up.)
However, it is a seriously flawed and fallacious "argument."

It seems that atheists/secularists like to use examples of the murderous brutality of Islamic extremists to denounce Christian belief, as part of a blanket attack on the evils of "religion" or "theism."
This is, however, fallacious equivication. We Catholics are not Muslims, we do not believe the same thing as the Muslims, we believe Islam is a false religion.
Therefore, using examples of Islam brutality to attack the Catholic Church or Christian Faith is completely fallacious.
To say that we are the same because we both worship a God or have religious faith is likewise absurd. We could also point out that Islamic terrorists also have two arms and two legs, or that they agree that the earth is round or whatever.

And comparing brutal executions of young girls and terrorist bombings, etc., with the Church's teachings against contraception is beyond absurd.
You talk as though the Catholic Church wills the death of people by AIDS. This is a ridiculous and false charicature. The Church is against use of condoms and other contraception (you can research this topic on here if you want to learn the details of why the Church has this teaching), but is also against all extra-marital sex. It is widespread sexual promiscuity, sodomy, and whoring that has led to the scourge of AIDS in Africa. Condoms are not fail-safe, and diseases can be spread even with condoms (they can burst and the AIDS virus can travel through the pores in the rubber).
AIDS will not be stopped by more rubbers, but by practicing chastity and monogamy.
If people obeyed the Church's moral teachings, we would not have the scourge of AIDS.
AIDS is spread primarily by practices contrary to Catholic moral teaching. Sure, it's much easier to simply slip on a condom than practice sexual restraint and morality, but places where sexual morality tends to be practiced do not have huge problems with STDs. We've been pushing "safe sex" and condoms on kids for decades now, and this has not done much to decrease the spread of STDs. Instead, it encourages the very kind of irresponsible, promiscuous behavior that helps spread AIDS and other STDs.

The Catholic Church does not force anybody into running around having promiscuous sex (with or without condoms). Your "argument" that the Church "causes death" and is equivalent to executing young girls or blowing up occupied buildings is absurd.


As to religious faith "causing" murders and attrocities, and atheism supposedly leading to peace and non-violence, history has brutally proven this false. Far more murders and atrocities have been committed by militantly atheistic Communism than by any other regime in history (approximately 75 million world-wide have been murdered by Communist regimes over the past century).
Obviously, no God is necessary for the comitting of atrocities.
I'm sure you'll argue (as other atheists here have) that your atheism is somehow totally different from that of Stalin and co. However, you'll hypocritically insist that Catholic "theism" is just the same as that of Islamic terrorists.

As for "censorship," this is a "family-friendly" board, but as long as you keep your language clean, don't engage in childish personal attacks, and don't link to offensive sites, you should be fine. But if your points can only be expressed by a lot of obscenity and four-letter words, and hateful diatribes, really, how intellectually serious can they be? (And I really have no interest in going to a message board where that is the general level of discussion.)
If you want to have intelligent debates and discuss ideas, you're more than welcome here. But if you're only interested in making obscene rants, this probably ain't the place for you.

[quote name='choose' post='1053818' date='Aug 30 2006, 06:03 PM']
PS. The Nazis, at Hitlers direction, outlawed atheism. The Nazi ideology included that the Aryan people were in fact god's special creation. Please feel free to do some research. Guess who's camp they were in?
[/quote]Not in that of the Catholic Church, which they outlawed and persecuted.
Nazis were neo-pagan, not Christian. They only allowed "churches" which were controlled by Nazi ideology. That "Hitler was a good Christian" nonsense so beloved of atheists is pure BS.

Edited August 31, 2006 by Socrates

[choose]

[quote]“Your argument (that religious Faith by its very nature leads to atrocities) is used by pretty much every atheist that comes on these boards (and I've argued with a number of them in the past; you are hardly the first to bring this stuff up.)
However, it is a seriously flawed and fallacious "argument."”[/quote]

Actually you are missing my argument, although the one you say is flawed is quite valid. My argument is that you excuse your faith of its consequences yet do not do the same for others. I ask you to produce a reason why your faith should be specially excused, in this case, excused for literally millions of avoidable deaths that it contributes to. If you would prefer, you can provide a reasons why Islam should not be excused. I can provide them very easily. I wonder if you can do the same since any argument you use against the faith of Islam, other than theist nonsense about “my faith is the true faith”, will also be applicable to your own faith.

But I will answer you assertion that attacking faith based on the atrocities it leads to is a flawed or fallacious argument. Faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So we are discussing the validity of making decisions, some of them very far reaching decisions that have no requirement to demonstrate a compatibility with or basis within observable reality. It is obvious that decision making not based on reality may lead to extremes of behaviour and that such behaviour cannot be rationalised without resorting to faith and that since faith cannot be defined as rational that there is no requirement for faith based behaviour to be rational. In essence, faith based decision making is excused the constraints of demonstrable reason or demonstrable consequence. There would be no Islamic suicide bombers without faith and there would not condom banning Catholics without faith. The reality of dead children in both events is sufficient evidence to provide constraint against the causal decisions once the unconstrained reason of faith is removed.

[quote]“It seems that atheists/secularists like to use examples of the murderous brutality of Islamic extremists to denounce Christian belief, as part of a blanket attack on the evils of "religion" or "theism."
This is, however, fallacious equivocation. We Catholics are not Muslims, we do not believe the same thing as the Muslims, we believe Islam is a false religion.
Therefore, using examples of Islam brutality to attack the Catholic Church or Christian Faith is completely fallacious.
To say that we are the same because we both worship a God or have religious faith is likewise absurd. We could also point out that Islamic terrorists also have two arms and two legs, or that they agree that the earth is round or whatever.”[/quote]

There are two very simple reasons why this does not excuse your faith. The first is that the Catholic faith has been guilty of innumerable atrocities throughout its history. It is a very simple matter to use example of catholic brutality and Christian brutality but then of course your defence would be that these acts occurred in the past. There are several reasons why using the “all in the past” defence are invalid. The first is that most historians consider that the reformation of the Church was due to the growth of secularism and secularism was not an objective championed by the church. In effect, the church was pacified by a reduction in its power. The second and equally valid reason is that the consequences of your faith are still as awful today as they ever were despite the reduction in actual violence. I have already given a fine example of this with aids in Africa, but you believe this can be disputed so let’s look at your argument for that and then highlight why you are wrong.

[quote]“And comparing brutal executions of young girls and terrorist bombings, etc., with the Church's teachings against contraception is beyond absurd.
You talk as though the Catholic Church wills the death of people by AIDS. This is a ridiculous and false charicature.”[/quote]

Comparing consequence with consequence is entirely valid and when we do so we see that the Catholic church actually comes away with more recent blood upon its hands. It is absurd to consider that you are absolved of responsibility for the consequences of your faith simply because you do not directly pick up a gun or a bomb and kill someone. It is akin to saying that a company that pollutes a water supply and thus kills many is not as guilty as a company that actually sends one of its employees off to inject a person directly with the same toxin. Both are guilty. Both are responsible for the consequences of the behaviour they promote. You are aware of the consequences yet you still support the cause. This is blatant hypocrisy and failure to accept responsibility for contributing to death and suffering on a massive scale.

[quote]
“The Church is against use of condoms and other contraception (you can research this topic on here if you want to learn the details of why the Church has this teaching), but is also against all extra-marital sex.”[/quote]

The issue here is that the Church has an opinion based on absolutely nothing at all except religious fantasy. There are two million deaths each year in Africa that are evidence to the fact that the churches opinion is the least beneficial to society and yet without one single shred of evidence or statistical data demonstrating that the churches policy is anything other than an encouragement of mass suicide the church still continues to place its baseless rules of faith above the interests of living human beings. This is absurd. When in much of the world it is illegal to drive or be a passenger in a car because the statistics demonstrate clearly the cost in human life of not taking a basic safety precaution on what grounds can the church claim an exception to basic reasoning here and demand that basic safety precautions should not be taken during sexual relations when all of the evidence demonstrates that the cost of avoiding such precautions is quite frankly staggering? But of course you excuse one madness with another by expecting the entire world to follow your again utterly baseless assumption that sex outside of marriage is somehow an incredible offence (worthy of death and hell, even for the babies) to your completely baseless god. If we were in court god would be excused of all of these crimes because of simple it is to demonstrate a reasonable doubt that it even exists. Who does that leave as the guilty party? Of course, it is the Catholics themselves and your motive is nothing more than your own faith.

[quote]“It is widespread sexual promiscuity, sodomy, and whoring that has led to the scourge of AIDS in Africa. Condoms are not fail-safe, and diseases can be spread even with condoms (they can burst and the AIDS virus can travel through the pores in the rubber).
AIDS will not be stopped by more rubbers, but by practicing chastity and monogamy”[/quote]

And the babies born HIV+ are of course guilty of these sins? Or the women or men who had no knowledge of their partners previous encounters? Condoms are not failsafe, but they are a great deal safer than no condoms at all. By refusing their use as a valid preventative measure you are directly at odds with all the evidence and the vast majority of expert opinion on the planet and without one single fact to back your assumptions up. And to top it all off you think that it’s not your fault because everyone should be chaste or monogamous. Wonderful! Follow our rules or die (but it’s not our fault). Nice people. Of course, in this particular case it is also a case of follow our rules and still die.

[quote]“If people obeyed the Church's moral teachings, we would not have the scourge of AIDS.”[/quote]

As I said, obey the church or die. See, not a lot has changed really despite secularism.

[quote]“AIDS is spread primarily by practices contrary to Catholic moral teaching. Sure, it's much easier to simply slip on a condom than practice sexual restraint and morality, but places where sexual morality tends to be practiced do not have huge problems with STDs. We've been pushing "safe sex" and condoms on kids for decades now, and this has not done much to decrease the spread of STDs. Instead, it encourages the very kind of irresponsible, promiscuous behaviour that helps spread AIDS and other STDs.”[/quote]

But catholic moral teaching is from your book that contains a vast number of contradictions, a good share of vicious brutality, and is nothing more than the writings of ancient people that didn’t even know the real reason why there is night and day. Applying its so called wisdom as blanket rules on a society that has radically changed, including having new diseases, is absolutely absurd and it is extremely clear that this has terrible consequences and a direct cost in human life. And there is not one shred of evidence to suggest that the book has any relationship to reality at all. You cannot defend your faith with your faith. You cannot suggest that the answer to the ills of your faith is the absolute adoption by all of your faith. That is a totalitarian view that demands the submission of all to your baseless faith and if people do not then there is no compassion for those that suffer outside of your faith and no consideration of responsibility when only some of your dogma is accepted as rule. That is rather similar to Islam.

Now, we all know that Christians are often very helpful and try to help people that suffer, the Tsunami being a good example, so what can possibly be the justification for washing your hands of the responsibility to end suffering when you are faced with an even greater death toll - one which you contribute to by insisting upon an idiot rule in the face of the all the evidence that your rule does a great deal more harm than good.

Promiscuous behaviour is not irresponsible if responsible precautions are taken. It is only immoral by your standard and your standard has not once provided any evidence of its validity. This is just an attempt to force your faith based take on morality onto all. There are many, such as myself, who do not view your morality as acceptable and there is a mountain load of evidence that your morality contributes to massive death and suffering on the single issue alone of contraceptive use.

[quote]“The Catholic Church does not force anybody into running around having promiscuous sex (with or without condoms). Your "argument" that the Church "causes death" and is equivalent to executing young girls or blowing up occupied buildings is absurd.”[/quote]

The Catholic Church does not counter the natural desire of humans to have sex. It cannot. The basic desire in most humans is often far greater than the force of your faith. This is even observed amongst your own ranks, even to the degree of your most faithful and theologically educated, your priests, being overcome with passion for young boys. I am not asserting that all priests are peadophiles, I am simply pointing out that even within your own ranks abstenance has proven to somewhat unreliable. Sex is inevitable, even though you consider much of it to be sin. So since you have failed to stamp out sin can you give me one good reason why other preventative measures against disease should not be taken? As an analogy, but not a straw man, it is akin to leaving people inside a burning house to burn because according to your faith the house shouldn’t be on fire anyway. How is that for absurd?

[quote]“As to religious faith "causing" murders and atrocities, and atheism supposedly leading to peace and non-violence, history has brutally proven this false. Far more murders and atrocities have been committed by militantly atheistic Communism than by any other regime in history (approximately 75 million world-wide have been murdered by Communist regimes over the past century).
Obviously, no God is necessary for the committing of atrocities.”[/quote]

Correct, no god is necessary for the committing of atrocities, but you are confused if you are thinking that atheism was the cause of the communist killings. It was not. The cause was a transformational ideology that placed an imaginary superior world above the interests of existing lives – rather like your own faith. This is also an irrational faith and it is the same madness that I argue against. Provide evidence and proof. Define clearly cause and consequence along with the evidence that supports a conclusion. Then decisions become a matter of analysing benefit and loss. People will often get their calculations wrong and fail to take into account all factors, but it is just pure lunacy to suggest that a lack of belief in god results in irrational action. On the other side of the fence, your side, it is absolutely clear that the possession of a faith does result in irrational action – action that cannot be in anyway attributed to analysis of the evidence. So whilst faith is not the only cause of atrocities that does not mean that it is not a cause of atrocities. History demonstrates clearly that it is. And so does the present.

I do not argue that my atheism is different to that of Stalin. A lack of an unfounded belief is a lack of an unfounded belief and so I would assume it likely that my atheism is no different to that of Stalin, although not having known him and discussed the matter I cannot be sure. I am however certain that there are many other ideological understandings we do not share. But Islam and Christianity do share a common thread. Both are faiths that place unproven and totally unsupported “ultimate truths” above the interests of living individuals. Both support the idea that there is no need to explain a decision above pointing to their respective books that are internally contradictory and make extraordinary claims without one single shred of evidence. Would you drive your car by faith or would you prefer to open your eyes? Why is it acceptable to attempt to steer the human race by faith if you cannot even trust yourself to pilot your car by the power and perfection of your faith? This is what Christianity and Islam share. The irrational double standard that far reaching decisions that affect the entirety of humanity should be commanded by an ancient and frankly absurd book whilst the simplest actions in your life should still be based upon reason. If you really believe then what need would you have to think, plan or act at all? So why excuse yourself of responsibility when the stakes are higher than just your own life?

[quote]“As for "censorship," this is a "family-friendly" board, but as long as you keep your language clean, don't engage in childish personal attacks, and don't link to offensive sites, you should be fine. But if your points can only be expressed by a lot of obscenity and four-letter words, and hateful diatribes, really, how intellectually serious can they be? (And I really have no interest in going to a message board where that is the general level of discussion.)
If you want to have intelligent debates and discuss ideas, you're more than welcome here. But if you're only interested in making obscene rants, this probably ain't the place for you.”[/quote]

I have not used any inappropriate language on this site and I will not. However censoring the link to my blog is excessive. Prior to posting on this thread I had posted only one time before. That post also included a link to a site and that site contained not one profanity, yet still the link was removed. I had posted to ask for counter arguments to an assertion on the site I linked to that Jesus never existed. This would appear to me to be a very valid area of debate and an opportunity for you to set the record straight. Yet, the post was censored thus removing the possibility of a discussion. I find that very heavy handed, as do I find the censorship of the link to my blog. Surely it would be sufficient to simply provide a warning that my blog contains some profanities and then leave it up to the individual to decide for themselves if they have the moral fibre to withstand such words?

That is why I would prefer to debate on my blog. On my blog I am assured that no comment, neither mine nor yours, would be tampered with in anyway. It ensures that we are both able to link to supporting references and fully explore the topic without the heavy handed intrusion of a biased moderator selectively deciding what references are and are not suitable.

Finally, let’s be honest. Hitler and the Nazis are not strictly relevant to our discussion and we should probably agree to trim this particular branch before it detracts from the actual point of contention, which is that faith is responsible for avoidable human suffering and death. But Hitler was a theist and described himself as a catholic. But don’t take my word for it, take his:

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

(Hitler had already outlawed atheism in 1933 incidentally)

You may also find these quotes interesting:

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfil the mission assigned to it by the Creator." [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

“The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.” (Hitler 1943, 383)

“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, . . . so that our people may mature for the fulfilment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.” (Hitler 1943)

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labour, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.” [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.” [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

“And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.” [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

“Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook.” [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

There are really many more quotes with reference, yet I think the point is made.