mp15 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I see your point, but it's not up to us to judge when someone's time comes. That's God's job. However, they should be punished for the crime. If we had harsher sentences and less luxurious prisions, then people might think twice before committing a crime. And I see your point as well. Just remember though that the church says that under certain circumstances that the death penenty is allowed. So in a sense we are allowed to judge when it's someones time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confessionator741 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Why? My statement was an exaggeration, but my point was that prisons are WAY too nice and have way many more things than they need to.... simplify, simplify, simplify.... and mp15... do you have any documentation on the church saying that? i would like to read more about it.... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_rev Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Most homeless people commit crimes, so they can go to jail, and get fed and have somewhere to live! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confessionator741 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 not in support of crime or anything, but materialy, why not? they would have all the essentials + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Check out Romans 13:1-5 It is pretty clear the government has full authority to the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsFrozen Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 And I see your point as well. Just remember though that the church says that under certain circumstances that the death penenty is allowed. So in a sense we are allowed to judge when it's someones time. Hi, MP.. I heard this before.. Do you know under what circumstances? Is it in the Catechism? Thank you! God bless. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsFrozen Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Check out Romans 13:1-5 It is pretty clear the government has full authority to the death penalty. Hi, Circle.. Like the new icon. I read it, but I have this feeling that the death penalty doesn't apply, because the whole "eye for an eye" thing was nixed by Jesus. I got the feeling that this passage was basically telling us to obey the laws. What do you think? God bless. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Check out Romans 13:1-5 It is pretty clear the government has full authority to the death penalty. Tell that to Christians in China or the Sudan or the Congo or Cuba . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 By the way I think that the death penalty is a permissable and moral decision in some cases. I just don't want to roll over to the state which today is killing Criminals, tomorrow might be killing Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I have a bit here, from the Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma: Profession of Faith Prescribed for Durand of Osca and His Waldensian Companions [From the letter "Eius Exemplo" to the Archbishop of Terraco, Dec. 12, 1208] (Here follows numbers 420-427) 425 ....Concerning a secular power we declare that without mortal sin it is possible to exersize a judgement of blood as long as one proceeds to bring punishment not in hatred but in judgement, not in- cautiously but advisedly. (The above line was added to the profession of Faith for heretical Waldensians returning to the Church, in 1210, according to the Denzinger). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 And by the way, life in Prison isn't such a beautiful option when it means a life of Criminal Rape because our prison system can't protect its inmates from the violence they do to each other. You will have a hard time convincing me that PRISON is moral and the Death Penalty is NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 (edited) Blazer, what we're talking about is the legitimate recourse of the State to the death penalty for heinous crimes. It is a matter of justice. My opinion is that I've more hope for the conversion of a criminal facing the death penalty. We cannot expiate more than in giving our own life (even if we forfeit that by our crimes). People rail against the teaching that "God can send someone to hell for all eternity for a crime that took only minutes to commit." And the world used to be able to answer back, "the state can take the life of that same man for the crime it took him only minutes to complete." Have we lost our mind? Killing 40 people; including a Catholic priest. Killing the vulnerable sick as they looked to you, Nurse, for help and healing. The audicity of this hate-filled murderer grows strong and waxes most likely into final impenitence with the likes of this madness coming from a moral prince, should his own personal view win the secular-punishment day. It is not mercy His Excellency proposes but impotence and shameful effeminate-ness when he should be virile with the spiritual censures (if this Nurse be Catholic and show himself impenitent) and not be an aid and comfort to this enemy of Christ and mankind. Christe Eleison! Edited January 9, 2004 by Donna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Hi, Circle.. Like the new icon. I read it, but I have this feeling that the death penalty doesn't apply, because the whole "eye for an eye" thing was nixed by Jesus. I got the feeling that this passage was basically telling us to obey the laws. What do you think? God bless. The "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" thing applies to government but not to us as Christians. When Peter goes and cuts off the guards ear that goes for Jesus, Jesus stops him and says "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." - He understood that if Peter killed the guard, his just punishment was death. Jesus also goes on to say "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's". This passage - It can be broken down as the following. I just did a lot of research on it last week - God Commands Obedience (Romans 13: 1a) Reason for Obeying #1 – Judgment by God (Romans 13: 1b-2) Reason for Obeying #2 – Judgment by Authority (Romans 13: 3-4) Reflection on Command (Romans 13: 5) If you notice in v4, it says the sword. There have been two interpretations of that, one as a symbol of office, and the other as a symbol of power (i.e. can give death penalty). Fortunately to make it simple, the word used for sword is always used in reference to the Roman sword for killing and never the sword of office which is another word. The government has been set up to properly punish evil and to promote good. You see good through the nobel peace prize and other awards given (although it could be a lot greater!). The evil side is punishable by death (decapitation by sword by that time period) and must hold sin in bay. This is ironic considering the message of love by Christ and how we are to turn the other cheek. It seems however that government has been instituted to preserve the world - not to expand salvation. You see right before this passage it is speaking of "do not judge, lest ye be judged" - this is referring to the judgment by the actual government. It is a common misconception that the judging is by God, but it is instead done by God's agent that He has established (13:1). I.E. - You judge someone a sinner and so thus he deserves death - if you kill him then your punishment will be death as well by the governmental authorities. (eye for eye etc.) This also applies to one who has had his father murdered or something similar - instead of seeking vengeance on your own as was common in the middle ages, you were to seek justice by the Government as we are not to do that judging. I hope that helps a little -peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Please clarify, Circle Master. Are you saying that God does not wish or endow the State to spread "salvation" (the gospel, the church, as you understand it)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I would agree - that is the churches responsibility. The governments responsibility from this passage is order in the form of punishment and reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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