Marriage between 2 Down's Syndrome Adults

[Lil Red]

is this licit?

i don't mean to be insensitive, but on friday's 20/20, they had a story of two down's syndrome adults (both higher functioning d.s.) who got married. there was a hindu ceremony, and what looked like a Catholic ceremony has well.

the reason i ask if this marriage is licit (if indeed it was a Catholic wedding) is because she had a procedure done (they didn't say what it was) so that they would never have kids, given the high likelihood that any children would also have down's syndrome, and the high likelihood that these two adults could not care for any children.

any help?

[avemaria40]

If they could both freely consent, yes it is licit. And they could probably consummate if they were sterilized, it just wouldn't be procreative. However, isn't one of the vows (in a Catholic marriage) to be open to children? So how would that work out?

[Lil Red]

i believe she had her tubes tied or cauterized her tubes or something like that. so pretty much sterilization. they didn't talk about whether they had a sex life but i assumed so because why else would she get her tubes tied?

and the reason i ask if their marriage is licit (perhaps the wrong word), is because i thought you had to be open to children and free from defects to be married in the Church. i know that's somewhere in the CCC. i'll have to look it up.

[Era Might]

[quote]Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:

1. those who lack the sufficient use of reason;

2. those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;

3. those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.

Can. 1096 §1. For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation.[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

this brings up a question I always wonder. What if for medical reasons one of the adults have tubs or male parts sniped(I cant spell the techincal terms) an example I am thinking of is a couple with 2 children and the wife had serious complications with both children and 2 different doctors both advised strongly that the husband have a historectomy(sp?) In my opinion you have a couple that has been open to children and had 2 and out of concern for her health they had the procedure done. They can still experience the intimacy of sex, and its conjugal purpose. For me I think in my heart that the greater sin would be putting the wife at serious health risk or forcing the couple to obstain entirely from conjucal relations.

For the record. I am a strong advocate of NFP and I have taught a study group on Theology of the Body and Humanie Vitae. My views are considered conservative in the nature of avoiding all forms of articfical birth control and I feel strong in that view.

[thessalonian]

If the sterilazation was done so that they could safetly marry then I would say that it would be on the same order as a pre-nuptual agreement which invalidates marriages. It shows lack of proper predisposition regarding marriage. The marriage must be open to life and a sterilized marriage is not. Now if the sterilizatoin occured outside the context of the marriage then it would depend on if the intent of the couple had changed such that they could still be open to life. I don't think mental capacity of the couple matters beyond can they make a sincere committment and give themselves to eachother. This the priest would have to discern I would imagine. Most likey most DS types could not I would guess however.

[Socrates]

Kinda weird.
I quess we need someone with more expertise on canon law, to give a more authoritative answer, but I would have doubts about it's being licit.

Openness to children is one of the requirements of a lawful marriage, and if the woman was sterilized for this purpose, it would seem to render the marriage illicit, regardless of the Down's syndrome.
The procreation and raising of children should be one of the primary purposes of marriage, and that clearly seems to be lacking here.
And on a side note, this couple would probably be naturally sterile anyway. People with Down's tend to be infertile, and the reproductive organs, especially in the male, are typically severely underdeveloped.

I do not think two people with DS getting married is a good idea at all, personally. (I have an aunt with DS, whom I love dearly, but who obviously has no business getting married.) Again, not to sound insensitive, but this does not seem to serve marriage's purpose of procreation, and raising of family; rather it is likely a sentimental exercise to help these people feel "they are just like everybody else."
I think marriage and it's true purpose should be taken more seriously than this.

[cmotherofpirl]

Many mentally retarded women are routinely put on the pill or steriilized as soon as they can reproduce, so it could have been done years before the marriage.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1052466' date='Aug 28 2006, 11:37 PM']
Many mentally retarded women are routinely put on the pill or steriilized as soon as they can reproduce, so it could have been done years before the marriage.
[/quote]

Thats what I was thinking... what if the sterilization was done before she could really give consent one way or another? Wouldn't that, then, still allow for the marriage to be licit since she could (presumably) be open to life despite the procedure that her parents/guardians had done to her? In my mind I'm likening it to a woman who has reached menopause, or is medically unable to conceive... sorry if I'm not making sense. This all, of course, supposing she hadn't been able to make the decision on her own.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1052527' date='Aug 29 2006, 12:14 AM']
Thats what I was thinking... what if the sterilization was done before she could really give consent one way or another? Wouldn't that, then, still allow for the marriage to be licit since she could (presumably) be open to life despite the procedure that her parents/guardians had done to her? In my mind I'm likening it to a woman who has reached menopause, or is medically unable to conceive... sorry if I'm not making sense. This all, of course, supposing she hadn't been able to make the decision on her own.
[/quote]
They are not consulted at all.

[N/A Gone]

this is so very sad....how are we any better than the nazi?

[C Frances]

This doesn't answer your question, but just in clarification...I'm pretty sure that the young lady who was married in this particular case was not Catholic. Their Christian ceremony took place at United Lutheran Presbyterian Parish.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1052630' date='Aug 29 2006, 01:33 AM']
this is so very sad....how are we any better than the nazi?
[/quote]
The nazis would have killed them at birth or in the womb.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1052466' date='Aug 28 2006, 10:37 PM']Many mentally retarded women are routinely put on the pill or steriilized as soon as they can reproduce, so it could have been done years before the marriage.[/quote]in this case, the woman herself said that she was sterilized so they would not have children - in which it sounds like she knew and approved it
[quote name='*Totus Tuus*' post='1052717' date='Aug 29 2006, 09:31 AM']This doesn't answer your question, but just in clarification...I'm pretty sure that the young lady who was married in this particular case was not Catholic. Their Christian ceremony took place at United Lutheran Presbyterian Parish. [/quote]thank goodness someone else saw this show - it looked like a Catholic priest and church, so thank you for the clarification

[veroni213]

There was an article about this couple in the July 24th issue of Time.

[quote]Women and especially men with Down syndrome have low rates of fertility, but pregnancy is possible. Carrie reluctantly ruled it out, even before she met Suj, when her mother told her, correctly, that she would have a high risk of bearing a child with DS. "I just burst into tears," she recalls, "and then I said I would not have any children." A tubal ligation ensured the decision.[/quote]

You can read the whole article at [url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1214946-1,00.html"]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...14946-1,00.html[/url]