ICTHUS Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) A protestant, in a debate on Baptismal regeneration, said the following And this water symbolizes baptism that.... I maintain that it is regeneration (which is what baptism pictures) that is in view. Why else does Peter specifically say "not the removal of dirt...but the pledge of a good conscience..." You can be water baptized and not have the latter. You can't be regenerated and not have that, because regeneration is what causes us to have a good conscience and to desire righteousness. Basically, he is saying that our baptism symbolises our regeneration by the Holy Spirit. This is standard Reformed theology, but what do you guys respond to it? Edited January 7, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Maybe you should be asking: What leads us to believe otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Maybe you should be asking: What leads you to post in a forum where you shouldn't be. Didn't you read the notice on the apologetics board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Maybe you should be asking: What leads you to post in a forum where you shouldn't be. Didn't you read the notice on the apologetics board? hold on.............i don't see any reason why he can't post here. granted, if he is looking here for debate, then this isn't the place. but, i believe that protestants can contribute truths that help catholics. especially in areas in which we are in agreement, circle's input can be valuable. even where we disagree, his input is valuable in the sense that it gives us a better understanding of the protestant reply and helps prepare us for counter-replies. so........circle...........as the moderator of this board, i welcome you here. as long as you remain aware of the intentions of this board, i'm fine w/ ur presence here. as for baptism, it IS in fact a symbol of our washing by the Holy Spirit. no Catholic would refute this. however, it is also the means by which we are washed clean. it is a symbol that enacts what it represents. it is symbolic and literal, just like the eucharist. (the eucharist symbolizes the body of Christ and his death on the cross while at the same time being the actual body of Christ) we must not forget that things like baptism must not strictly be symoblic, or strictly be literal...........but can on occasion be both. i hope this helps..........pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 So, it is both symbolic of regeneration, and efficacious in bringing it about... Proof, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Just a suggestion in my post - you need to understand how we argue for it, to argue against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Circle, With kindness, I ask you to read the guideliness for this phorum. It's not for debate, least of all between Catholics and non-Catholics. Come-on back to the Debate phorum. Bring your questions about what's here over there. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I wasn't debating - I pointed out you need to make sure the question is the right question. Building up arguments for the sake of arguments is no good. Building up arguments to deal 100% with the other side's strong points - is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 So, it is both symbolic of regeneration, and efficacious in bringing it about... Proof, please? read this, from the catechism Symbols of the Holy Spirit 694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." 27 Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified 28 as its source and welling up in us to eternal life. 29 also, the following paragraphs: WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED? 1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature." 6 1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God." 7 i hope this helps..........pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 Can you tell me what the footnotes from the Catechism are in those paragraphs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Can you tell me what the footnotes from the Catechism are in those paragraphs? yes, of course.... 27....1 Cor 12:13 28....Jn 19:34; 1 Jn 5:8 29....Jn 4:10-14; 7:38; Ex 17:1-6; Isa 55:1; Zech 14:8; 1 Cor 10:4; Rev 21:6; 22:17 6....2 Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15; cf Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:12 7....Titus 3:5; Jn 3:5 icthus, u don't have a catechism? u definitely need to get one! pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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