The Red Cross Ambulance Incident

[Jaime]

The lebanon thread was closed but I haven't seen this information pop up here. Here is a link to the full [url="http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/"]article[/url] that shows some seriously compelling evidence that the ambulance "bombings" were faked. (hat tip to Dom Bettinelli)

[quote name='stephen' post='1030981' date='Jul 26 2006, 03:04 AM']
It most certainly is the fault of the Israelis if they drop bombs in civilian populated areas. You seem to have your religion mixed up. You see, it's rabbinic Judaism which allows for the indiscriminate killing of civilians in military operations.

[url="http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/legal/psak5766Sivan24b.html"]http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/legal/psak5766Sivan24b.html[/url]

But, you see, the Catholic Church is absolutely opposed to such a thing. That's why Pope Benedict condemned the Israeli's actions and stated that they're unjustified:

[url="http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060716/3/2n7xz.html"]http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060716/3/2n7xz.html[/url]
And targeting UN posts, ambulances, refugees and children with F-16s and hellfire missile equipped helicopters is heroic, I take it?
... like clearly marked ambulances, for instance?

[img]http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/26/redcross_wideweb__470x352,0.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Here is just a sample from the article.


[quote]

But this view of the same hole, found on this site, tells a completely different story. First of all, notice that the irregular white blotches and other gashes match those in the first picture, doubly confirming that this is the same ambulance, but with better lighting and at a better angle, photographed from the right side. Now look carefully at the edges of the hole. There is an unpainted flange of consistent width around the perimeter, with small screw holes at regular intervals. Also, the metal around the edges is not bent inward, as one would expect from a missile puncturing through the roof. In fact, the hole looks unmistakably like a pre-existing circular hole in the roof, to which some feature -- [b]such as a light or a vent cover -[/b]- was attached, and then removed. (We'll see this same photo again later when discussing other elements of the story.) [/quote]

[img]http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/holeclose.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/spears_iftar2.jpg[/img] Undamaged lebanese ambulances. Notice the vents in the middle of the cross?


Its good reading and I'd be interested in Stephen's response to it. Its pretty clear that these (along with other things) have been faked.


If this was covered while I was on vacation, just ignore the post

[stephen]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1050805' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:41 AM']
Its pretty clear that these (along with other things) have been faked.

[/quote]

This is how "Church Scholars" spend their time today? As apologists for Zionist war crimes?

I suppose they photoshopped the deaths and injuries of those inside the shelled and strafed ambulances ...

Video of the ambulances and those who were injured inside them here:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7wroSYRXJo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7wroSYRXJo[/url]

Your brand of apologetics is despicable and certainly does no service for Jesus Christ, Sanhedrin scho ... excuse me, "Church Scholar."

Edited August 26, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

Why would I be inclined to believe that the Israelis did attack ambulances in Lebanon recently? Because the Israelis have a well documented history of attacking ambulances.

Here is CNN international video of an unmistakably deliberate Israeli missile strike on an ambulance near Tyre, Lebanon on Sunday, April 14, 1996 in which six innocent persons were killed:

[url="http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.lebanon.pm/ambulnce.mov"]http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.le...pm/ambulnce.mov[/url]

From Amnesty International's report on the incident:

[quote]

[size=3][b]Attack on ambulance carrying civilians, 13 April 1996 [/b] [/size]


On 13 Apri l 1996 at abou t 1.40 pm an IDF helic opter rock eted a vehi cle carr ying 13 civilians fleeing the village of al-Mansuri, killing two women and four young girls. The attack happened near the Fijian Battalion UN checkpoint 1-23 south of Tyre. The vehicle was a grey Volvo station wagon with a blue flooding light and a siren. A clear red crescent was painted on the hood, and the word ambulance was written in Arabic on the hood and on both sides of the car. Also written were the words al-waqf al-islami-fil-Mansuri, Islamic Endowment in al-Mansuri.

Video footage taken by reporters at the scene shows the vehicle approaching the checkpoint at a moderate speed, with its blue flashing light and siren on, and the car packed with women and children. Other vehicles crowded with civilians, including a pick-up truck and a tractor, were travelling in convoy with the Volvo. Eye-witnesses saw two IDF helicopters (most probably Apache attack helicopters) hovering low over the area of the checkpoint. As soon as the vehicle passed the checkpoint heading north, a missile fired by one of the helicopters (most probably a laser-guided Hellfire air-to-surface missile), hit the back of the car or exploded just behind it ripping through its back door. The vehicle then crashed into a house just off the road. According to Abbas Ali Jiha, the driver:

...the ambulance was hit in the back and swung off the street. I ran from the car carrying two of my children, Mahdi [who survived] and Mariam [who died], and told the journalists that there were dead and wounded in the car.

Inside the car two women, Muna Habib Shuwayh, 28, the wife of Abbas Jiha, and Nawkha Ahmad al-Uqla, 50 (a neighbour of Abbas Jiha) were killed. Also killed were four girls: Zeinab, 10, Hanan, 5, and Mariam, 2½ months, (all daughters of Abbas Jiha) and Hudu Fadi Khalid, 11 (Nawkha al-Uqlas grand-daughter). Five other children in the car Abbas Jiha and his cousin Ali Ammar survived.

UN soldiers and other eye-witnesses who were at the scene immediately after the car was hit said that there were no weapons or any other type of military equipment in the car, only clothes and some food supplies. The video footage of the dead and wounded in the car moments after the attack supports these statements. Amnesty International has no evidence to indicate that the driver or anyone else in the car had any connection with Hizbullah. Abbas Jiha, an agricultural worker who had emigrated to Germany but returned to al-Mansuri some 15 months before Operation Grapes of Wrath, told Amnesty International that he was not a member of Hizbullah and that he was not involved in any military activity. He maintained that after the beginning of the Israeli operation he volunteered to drive the vehicle for emergency purposes such as bringing medical and food supplies to al-Mansuri, which was under sporadic bombardment. On 13 April, the day of the attack, he decided to use the vehicle to evacuate his family from the village after hearing of the IDF warnings issued on SLA radio that al-Mansuri and other villages would be attacked.

The kashafat al-risalah al-islamiyya, the Islamic Scouts charity organisation, affiliated to Amal, runs a network of ambulances and medical services in southern Lebanon and assists privately-operated ambulances by providing medical supplies and training volunteer first aiders. The vehicle itself was owned by the village community. In normal times it was parked near the mayors house who also held the keys. When Operation Grapes of Wrath began, the Islamic Scouts operation centre in Tyre took control of the al-Mansuri ambulance by supplying it with one of their regular drivers and fuel and despatching it for various humanitarian purposes. On the day of the attack the vehicle had travelled twice between Tyre and al-Mansuri. In its last trip to al-Mansuri on 13 April, Abbas Jiha drove the car to the village to evacuate his family.

Abbas Jihas two surviving sons Mahdi and Ali carrying photos of their mother Muna and sister Zeinab who were killed in the attack on the ambulance on 13 April 1996. Under international law, medical transport vehicles marked with designated symbols (including the Red Cross and Red Crescent) are protected against attack unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian function, acts harmful to the enemy (Article 13, Protocol 1). The circumstances surrounding the attack and IDF statements clearly suggest that the IDF wanted to hit this particular vehicle -- it was not a mistake. IDF officials told Amnesty International delegates that at the time the vehicle was attacked it was being used by a Hizbullah terrorist, and that it was a rescue vehicle and not a properly marked ambulance. Public statements made by the IDF shortly after the attack refer to "a vehicle belonging to a Hizbullah terrorist", and continue: "If other individuals were hit during the attack, they had been used by the Hizbullah as a cover for the Hizbullah activities ... to the best of our knowledge the terrorist was hit."


The IDF has produced no evidence to show that the vehicle they hit, or any other similar vehicle for that matter, had at any time been used by Hizbullah for military purposes. Independent observers interviewed by Amnesty International did suggest that Hizbullah may have misused ambulances, but did not provide specific examples to corroborate such suspicions. In any case, this vehicle was certainly engaged in legitimate humanitarian activities at the time it was hit and was travelling in a convoy of civilian vehicles away from, and not into, the area that the IDF had warned civilians to evacuate. Moreover, the Israeli helicopter crew must, at the time of the attack, have seen the ambulance markings on the vehicle. In attacking the vehicle, the IDF showed a blatant disregard for civilian lives and violated international law.

[url="http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150421996#AOA"]http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150421996#AOA[/url][/quote]

Edited August 26, 2006 by stephen

[Anomaly]

Stevie,
Have Hezbollay cowards ever used ambulances to supply terrorists, move arms, transport terrorists, or in any way use them?

Why did the ambulance not stop at the check point?

[Jaime]

[quote name='stephen' post='1050877' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:27 AM']
This is how "Church Scholars" spend their time today? As apologists for Zionist war crimes?

I suppose they photoshopped the deaths and injuries of those inside the shelled and strafed ambulances ...

Video of the ambulances and those who were injured inside them here:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7wroSYRXJo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7wroSYRXJo[/url]

Your brand of apologetics is despicable and certainly does no service for Jesus Christ, Sanhedrin scho ... excuse me, "Church Scholar."
[/quote]


Well gee whiz Stephen, that is a thoughtful and articulate response.

I find it interesting that the "rocket hole" is in the exact same spot and size as the vent.

I find it interesting that the "rocket hole" is rusted along the edges and the edges are "blown" outward not in.

I find it interesting that hezbollah has sucked so many people in to their PR strategy

I find it interesting that all you can do is insult and not address the inconsistencies shown.

Did you even bother to read the article I posted?

[stephen]

I find it interesting that you've ignored the video and Amnesty International report that proves beyond any doubt that the Israelis attack ambulances.

[url="http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.le...pm/ambulnce.mov"]http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.le...pm/ambulnce.mov[/url]

Edited August 26, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1050921' date='Aug 26 2006, 10:43 AM']
Stevie,
Have Hezbollay cowards ever used ambulances to supply terrorists, move arms, transport terrorists, or in any way use them? [/quote]

I have seen no evidence of any kind that would indicate that they do. Have you?

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1050921' date='Aug 26 2006, 10:43 AM']Why did the ambulance not stop at the check point?
[/quote]

They were fleeing for their lives from the Israeli "Grapes of Wrath" operation. Why would they stop to talk to Israeli soldiers? That's who they were fleeing from.

If you're attempting to justify shooting at ambulances based upon the mere suspicion that there [i]might[/i] be weapons in them, your thinking is no different than that of a terrorist.

And when the Israelis attack clearly marked ambulances full of innocent people, they have no right to call anyone else "terrorists" or claim the moral high ground. They're hypocrites of the worst kind.

Edited August 26, 2006 by stephen

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stephen' post='1050987' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:22 PM']
I have seen no evidence of any kind that would indicate that they do. Have you?
They were fleeing for their lives from the Israeli "Grapes of Wrath" operation. Why would they stop to talk to Israeli soldiers? That's who they were fleeing from.

If you're attempting to justify shooting at ambulances based upon the mere suspicion that there [i]might[/i] be weapons in them, your thinking is no different than that of a terrorist.

And when the Israelis attack clearly marked ambulances full of innocent people, they have no right to call anyone else "terrorists" or claim the moral high ground. They're hypocrites of the worst kind.
[/quote]Wrong Steve. It's plain stupidity to not stop at an armed checkpoint. Of course the persons have to be viewed as dangerous. The thinking is different than terrorists. Armies with codes of conduct don't launch attacks from hospitals or ambulances. When terrorists like Hezzbollay do, they violate the status of the hospital and make it a military target.
People like you who justify everything the terrorists do only contribute the escalation of violence. You reap what you sow.

[stephen]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051021' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:51 PM']
It's plain stupidity to not stop at an armed checkpoint. [/quote]

It's plain stupidity to stop ambulances at checkpoints. But the Israelis do this as a matter of policy. It is a common occurrence for wounded Arabs and pregnant mothers and their babies to die as their ambulances are held up in Israeli checkpoints.

In a medical emergency, people should be able to get medical attention as quickly as possible and their lives should not be endangered due to Israeli suspicion that every Arab--even a wounded Arab or pregnant Arab woman in labor in an ambulance--is a terrorist.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051021' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:51 PM'] Of course the persons have to be viewed as dangerous. [/quote]

I'd recommend less Fox News and more Catholic catechism.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051021' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:51 PM']The thinking is different than terrorists. Armies with codes of conduct don't launch attacks from hospitals or ambulances. [/quote]

The Israelis launch their terrorist operations from US supplied bulldozers, tanks, helicopters and F-16s. That's their "code of conduct."

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051021' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:51 PM'] When terrorists like Hezzbollay do, they violate the status of the hospital and make it a military target. [/quote]

You have repeatedly made that claim without offering a shred of evidence in support of it.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051021' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:51 PM']People like you who justify everything the terrorists do only contribute the escalation of violence. You reap what you sow.
[/quote]

I've called attention to the fact that the Israelis attack civilians indiscriminately and I'm being tarred and feathered for it by you, a transparent apologist for Israeli war crimes.

[CatholicCid]

[quote]And when the Israelis attack clearly marked ambulances full of innocent people, they have no right to call anyone else "terrorists" or claim the moral high ground. They're hypocrites of the worst kind[/quote]

From the article and video they attacked a Blue Volvo with the markings of an ambulance.

I would consider that more suspicious than an actual ambulance which is pretty unmistakable.

The article makes an assumption or two as well.
[quote]Moreover, the Israeli helicopter crew [b]must[/b], at the time of the attack, [b]have [/b] seen the ambulance markings on the vehicle.[/quote]

In interest of the article too, while no way justifying the attack, it was not being used as an ambulance or such, instead the driver was using it to evacuate his family and friends.

Another interesting this is:
[quote]Independent observers interviewed by Amnesty International did suggest that Hizbullah may have misused ambulances, but did not provide specific examples to corroborate such suspicions. [/quote]


The article/video themselves come into doubt as it seems to be a he said/he said argument.

[quote]IDF officials told Amnesty International delegates that at the time the vehicle was attacked it was being used by a Hizbullah terrorist, and that it was a rescue vehicle and not a properly marked ambulance. [/quote]

[quote]Abbas Jiha, an agricultural worker who had emigrated to Germany but returned to al-Mansuri some 15 months before Operation Grapes of Wrath, told Amnesty International that he was not a member of Hizbullah and that he was not involved in any military activity.[/quote]

[stephen]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051044' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:27 PM']
From the article and video they attacked a Blue Volvo with the markings of an ambulance. [/quote]

What kind of sophistry is this? It was an ambulance that happened to be a Volvo manufactured vehicle. Every ambulance is manufactured by some vehicle manufacturer. There is no "ambulance " brand ambulance.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051044' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:27 PM'] I would consider that more suspicious than an actual ambulance which is pretty unmistakable. [/quote]

It [i]was[/i] an actual ambulance, and that is unmistakable.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051044' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:27 PM'] The article makes an assumption or two as well. [/quote]

If the Israelis could see the ambulance clearly enough to accurately target it, it's not a great leap to believe that they could see the lights and markings which clearly identified it as an ambulance. Whatever the case, they have no right to shoot at innocent people based upon suspicion. They killed 6 innocent people in that ambulance. What do you have to say about that?

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051044' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:27 PM'] In interest of the article too, while no way justifying the attack, it was not being used as an ambulance or such, instead the driver was using it to evacuate his family and friends.[/quote]

That's right. It doesn't justify the attack in any way and it in no way incriminates the innocents inside the ambulance who were fleeing for their lives. So what's your point?

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051044' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:27 PM']

The article/video themselves come into doubt as it seems to be a he said/he said argument.
[/quote]

The only thing that's in doubt here are the people with Catholic sounding screen names who are transparent apologists for Zionist war crimes.

Edited August 26, 2006 by stephen

[ReinnieR]

[img]http://www.redcross.org.ph/index0_files/humanity.gif[/img]

[url="http://www.redcross.org.ph/"]http://www.redcross.org.ph/[/url]

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='stephen' post='1051099' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:10 PM']
What kind of sophistry is this? It was an ambulance that happened to be a Volvo manufactured vehicle. Every ambulance is manufactured by some vehicle manufacturer. There is no "ambulance " brand ambulance.
It [i]was[/i] an actual ambulance, and that is unmistakable.

[color="#FF0000"]I apologize. I just am not accustomed to calling a "grey Volvo station wagon with a blue flooding light and a siren" an ambulance. THe more square, bus type white vehicles are what I consider to be more traditional ambulances.
I was just pointing out that the vehicle itself was not a 100% distinguishable ambulance from what the article said and the picture of it in the video.[/color]

If the Israelis could see the ambulance clearly enough to accurately target it, it's not a great leap to believe that they could see the lights and markings which clearly identified it as an ambulance.

[color="#CC0000"]From the video you showed, all I saw was a sole vehicle moving at a fast rate of speed. I could not make out any distinguashable marks on the hood or roof of the car. I do recoqnize the Ambulance writing on the side, but that would be harder to see from the air. The one distinguishable thing was the light fixtures/sirens. How much could be seen from the air would depend on a variety of things.[/color]


Whatever the case, they have no right to shoot at innocent people based upon suspicion.

[color="#FF6600"]Somewhat agreed. Remember the car that was shot at the Iraqi check point by US Troops? The soldiers had to take action. A car sped past a check point. They could either wait and hope it was not some kind of car bomb or take action. They took action.
The problem is, when one is in a war zone, it is harder to seperate "innocent people" and "suspicious enemy"[/color]


[color="#CC0000"]They killed 6 innocent people in that ambulance. What do you have to say about that?[/color]

All lose of life, whether it be 6 innocent people or 100 terrorist is to be mourned.


That's right. It doesn't justify the attack in any way and it in no way incriminates the innocents inside the ambulance who were fleeing for their lives. So what's your point?

[color="#CC0000"]I was just saying it was not being used as an ambulance in a medical emergency at the time.
I must also wonder what the IDF meant when they said "and that it was a rescue vehicle and not a properly marked ambulance."[/color]

The only thing that's in doubt here are the people with Catholic sounding screen names who are transparent apologists for Zionist war crimes.
[/quote]
I take no stance on the wars and such. I was just pointing out thoughts I had on the article/video you posted. No need for name calling to try and dodge the original statement.

One side said it was for terrorist use.
The other said it was for humanitarian.

A he said/he said argument.

Edited August 26, 2006 by CatholicCid

[Jaime]

[quote name='stephen' post='1050973' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:37 PM']
I find it interesting that you've ignored the video and Amnesty International report that proves beyond any doubt that the Israelis attack ambulances.

[url="http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.le...pm/ambulnce.mov"]http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.le...pm/ambulnce.mov[/url]
[/quote]


I guess that translates to "no hot stuff I didn't read the article you posted. I'd rather just rant"

I think that Amnesty. like every news agency, got duped by the propaganda. Which btw you refuse to refute! How in the world can a rocket cause the exact same sized hole as the vent that is in all lebanese ambulances? Quite the coincidence Stephen. Yet you will not address it.

I'm certainly not saying that Israel has not killed civilians. What I am saying is that this is a clear case of war propaganda. And you've bought it hook line and sinker pal!

PS you might want to provide a link that works

[Anomaly]

Stevie,
It IS ignorant to not stop at a check point, even if you are an ambulance. It's a known fact that terrorists have used ambulances to transport arms and combatants. All vehicles are checked as a matter of course. Ambulances don't get the same scrutiny as other vehicles. Again, you point the finger the wrong way. It's the COWARD Hezbollay that hide behind pregnant women when they use ambulances. it's the COWARD Hezbollay that are responsible for putting innocent people in harms way by using hospitals, schools, and ambulances for military purposes.