GodChild Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 I'm from Australia so I have no idea what case your all talking about The only thing I'd have to say is that justice is a double edged sword ... that is why Jesus tells us not to judge and it is for God to judge alone. Justice applied correctly is a magnificent thing but "justice" applied incorrectly and "justice" applied against an innocent is something abhorrent God have mercy on everyone involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051499' date='Aug 27 2006, 02:23 AM'] I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life. [/quote] Whether he had a "difficult childhood" is irrelevent to his guilt or innocence. In today's "victimhood culture", we absolve people of guilt or responsibility for their actions simply because they have undergone hardships or injustice. Only when people start taking responsibility for their own actions, and stop blaming others for their own misdeeds, will the cycle be broken. If we learned that Hitler or Osama bin Laden were abused as a child, or had undergone other injustice, would that absolve them of their guilt? [quote name='GodChild' post='1051740' date='Aug 27 2006, 05:47 PM'] I'm from Australia so I have no idea what case your all talking about The only thing I'd have to say is that justice is a double edged sword ... that is why Jesus tells us not to judge and it is for God to judge alone. Justice applied correctly is a magnificent thing but "justice" applied incorrectly and "justice" applied against an innocent is something abhorrent God have mercy on everyone involved [/quote] Well, according to the story posted, the man was guilty, and admitted his guilt. And taking "judge not lest ye be judged yourself" out of context in this way would mean that no one could be convicted or punished of any crime, and that murderers, thieves, and rapists should be allowed to freely roam the streets (because convicting them would require judging them). That passage means judging the state of one's soul. We can judge whether actions are wrong and deserve punishment. Edited August 28, 2006 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Gahhh.... This has become my pet peeve. "Jesus said don't judge." He never said that. That is twisting Scripture so you can lie to yourself. The meaning is don't judge others to a standard you would not want to be judged. Don't judge a murderer if you don't want to be judged the same if you murder someone. If you believe you forfeit your right as a human if you murder, then there is no problem with condemning a murderer. I don't kill people because I'm afraid I won't get away with it. I choose to not murder because I believe it destroys my humanity and society has every right to dispose of me like the sub-human I've chosen to become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted August 28, 2006 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1051646' date='Aug 27 2006, 02:39 PM'] Why do you say "alleged murder"? Are you saying that Page [i]didn't[/i], in fact, brutally torture his victim to death in cold blood? [/quote] Why are you focusing on one word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051990' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:30 AM'] Why are you focusing on one word? [/quote] Because it's an important one. We use "alleged" when we don't know. In this case, we do. He did kill his victim to keep him from reporting the robbery. It was a cold-blooded murder. Not alleged-- actual. That the perpetrator had a terribly horrific childhood is a tragedy. That shouldn't happen to anyone. However, the victim in the crime being discussed it the robbery/murder victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I want to further discuss whther or not it is appropraite to say that the state is murdering Elijah Paige. So I (think) I understand the point being made about the real difficulty is the state not showing mercy. So the state has the ability to use non-lethal means to deter this murderer from harming society further (even "prison society," thru private cells, etc) other than execution (life in prison)......... it is therefore not necessary to kill him, right? If it is not necessary to kill someone (necessary being scenarios like self-defense, kill or be killed, etc)........ but the person is killed, on purpose....... isn't that murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) sorry for the double post Edited August 28, 2006 by tomasio127 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted August 28, 2006 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 (edited) [quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:08 PM'] I want to further discuss whther or not it is appropraite to say that the state is murdering Elijah Paige. So I (think) I understand the point being made about the real difficulty is the state not showing mercy. So the state has the ability to use non-lethal means to deter this murderer from harming society further (even "prison society," thru private cells, etc) other than execution (life in prison)......... it is therefore not necessary to kill him, right? If it is not necessary to kill someone (necessary being scenarios like self-defense, kill or be killed, etc)........ but the person is killed, on purpose....... isn't that murder? [/quote] Tom is absolutely right. Mr. Page is sheduled to be killed by the State Tuesday at 10. God, Jesus, Spirit, Have Mercy. All ye Saints and Angels, pray for him. Edited August 28, 2006 by catholicinsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM'] I want to further discuss whther or not it is appropraite to say that the state is murdering Elijah Paige. So I (think) I understand the point being made about the real difficulty is the state not showing mercy.[/quote] The state does show "mercy." The State no longer does public hangings, or beheadings, and the Murders have appeal after appeal, chance after chance. Mercy is shown. [quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM'] So the state has the ability to use non-lethal means to deter this murderer from harming society further (even "prison society," thru private cells, etc) other than execution (life in prison).........[/quote] First off "Life is prison" is 25yrs in prison in most all cases, and then if there "good" they get out as early as 5 to 8 yrs!!!! Thats carp. Execution is not just to "deter" it is [color="#FF0000"]punishment and justice[/color] The state does not have the ability to keep every murder criminal in solitary confinement, it is just not possable, there is no space for them, and no money. Your living in the "what if", and what if just aint what is, sorry. Someone that burtally takes the life of a innocent person forfits his or her own life. Even with private cells (which they have now) society is still in danger. Someone still must feed this person, care for this person and clean him or her when they defill themselves, which they do, and then when the police go in to clean them up the prisoner trys to kill the policemen. [quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM'] it is therefore not necessary to kill him, right?[/quote] Wrong. It is necessary that the punishment fit the crime, you violently take the life of a innocent person you forfit your own life. [quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM'] If it is not necessary to kill someone (necessary being scenarios like self-defense, kill or be killed, etc)........ but the person is killed, on purpose....... isn't that murder? [/quote] But it is necessary to carry out justice. [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052153' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:54 PM'] God, Jesus, Spirit, Have Mercy. All ye Saints and Angels, pray for him. [/quote] I agree with this.... May God have mercy on his soul. I also pray for Divine Justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 when someone commits a grave crime, they forfeit their right to live. it is the state's duty and obligation to either offer them a non-lethal punishment (which, when it is sufficient to protect society and is available, can be called the greater good) or to execute them. any murderer who is executed has COMMITTED SUICIDE by the act of murder. it would be impossible for a just government with a fair justice system to murder someone who was, in fact, a murderer. even if the justice system was not completely fair, it is impossible for the state to murder a murderer. even an unjust government could not murder a murderer. it is a greater good to use non-lethal means when available and sufficient; but it is still a good to use lethal means. it is never murder. in Christian morality: [b]homicide = suicide[/b] and it is just the state's job to bring that justice to completion. notice the catechism says that non-lethal means are [i]more[/i] in keeping with human dignity, but not that lethal means are not in keeping with human dignity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catholicinsd Posted August 28, 2006 Author Share Posted August 28, 2006 [mod]IceP--personal attack[/mod] South Dakota, as great as it is, can't play God, now or ever. Death is God's Holy issue, not yours or mine or the State of SD. I, a South Dakotan, can tell you all that the State can incarserate Eli quite well without shedding his precious blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 The problem with your logic is that the punishment being meted out to this man is still perfectly in line with the Church and the Bible. Perhaps not the only option, and perhaps not the best option, but still a VALID and viable option. I don't feel the need to say any more that this because Al (and others) have certainly detailed this argument several times over in the last couple pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052206' date='Aug 28 2006, 03:26 PM']South Dakota, as great as it is, can't play God, now or ever. Death is God's Holy issue, not yours or mine or the State of SD. I, a South Dakotan, can tell you all that the State can incarserate Eli quite well without shedding his precious blood. [/quote]God has endowed human society with the authority to punish and even take life as a matter of justice. That fact is quite plain. That may make you angry for good reason. Human society may imperfectly mete out the just act of execution, but God will provide perfect justice in the end. Believeing only God can take life is creating your own rules and theology and ignores centuries of fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1052188' date='Aug 28 2006, 03:57 PM'] The state does not have the ability to keep every murder criminal in solitary confinement, it is just not possable, there is no space for them, and no money. Your living in the "what if", and what if just aint what is, sorry. [/quote] I was unaware that practical difficulties determined morality. My bad. I'm sorry that my belief that they don't apparently provokes you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 [quote name='tomasio127' post='1052296' date='Aug 28 2006, 05:14 PM'] I was unaware that practical difficulties determined morality. My bad. I'm sorry that my belief that they don't apparently provokes you. [/quote] Tomasio, Practical difficulties do limit the options and choices of how to behave morally. Justice and mercy must co-exist for either to be possible and imperfect choices are inevitable in this imperfect world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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