South Dakota Execution

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1050830' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:38 AM']
I guess God was sinning when He caused Gemorrah to be destroyed with fire and brimstone.

I guess God was sinning when He caused Lot's wife to be made into a pillar of salt.

And of course, God was sinning when He caused the Egyptian army to be drowned in the Red Sea.

Let's not bring up all the First Born.

And what about the inhabitants of Jericho...
What a burden it must be, to have a higher moral standard than God Himself.
[/quote]

All those example are from the Old Testament. We are not people of the Old Testament. We are people of the Gospel- the Gospel of an executed man.

[adsdrummer]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1050790' date='Aug 25 2006, 11:19 PM']
But its only your opinon that it isn't a just punishment. Many people disagree with your position. The young man himself disagrees with you.

It has always been taught that if your deliberately take the life of the innocent you forfeit your life in return. No one right is absolute. The state of your soul is more important than the length of your life.
[/quote]


i agree with catholicinsd. I would like to see references for this "teaching" please. it doesnt seem solid at all.

[adsdrummer]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1050820' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:03 AM']
Or maybe, just maybe, he decided to accept a punishment he believes is just. Many people who have killed accept that their own death is a just punishment.

The Bible teaches that murderers have forfeited their right to life. The Catholic Church teaches that murderers have forfeited their right to life. Your statemetns are conrary both the the teachings of the Scriptures (whosover sheddeth a man's blood by man shall his blood be shed"), Christ Himself (for God has given you (Pilate, Rome) power over my life), and Christ's Catholic Church (the Catholic doctrine/principal of forfeiture, Catechism of the Catholic Church). You are talking contrary to all three of these things.

Again, follow the Church's lead and say that the State ought to show mercy. Go so far as to shout and scream in outcry that the State is being unjust by not showing mercy. But it is not murder; and if he does get executed accept that the lesser good was still done. That's what Christ and His Church commands of you.
[/quote]


I'm pretty sure the Church is almost ALWAYS AGAINST the death penalty. i will go to the CCC to check it.
ok here we are

CCC-2266-The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. the primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has commited an offense incapable of doing harm-without definitively taking him away from him the possibilityof redeeming himself-the cases in which execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if practically non-existent"*
*John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae 56.

so, unless South Dakota cannot contain the guy from harming society more, the death penalty is unjust as this states. and well, the cases in which that cant keep him secure, very rare if ever. and im almost positive they can put him in max. security, and slap him with life and be fine rather than kill him. I'll side with the CCC and JP2 on this one.

Edited August 26, 2006 by adsdrummer

[Aloysius]

read that quote more carefully; because that's the exact quote I'm citing here.

If however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are [b]more[/b] in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

It is a greater good to show mercy, but because Traditional Catholic Teaching allows for the state to have recourse to the death penalty because of the Catholic principal of forfeiture, it is still a good if one guilty of a grave offence is executed. No matter what: if they are guilty then they receive the punishment justly. The state may be wrong to do it because it should have showed mercy, but if it goes ahead anyway the criminal is still receiving what he deserves according to Catholic teaching.

All I'm saying is that this is not murder and it is contrary to Catholic teaching to call it murder. The CCC says authorities have a moral obligation to limit themselves to non-lethal means when those non-lethal means are sufficient. If they do not, the sin is in not doing the greater good; it is not the sin of murder because that person has forfeited his right to life and it is only through the greater good of the mercy of the state that he would be permitted to still live.

The sin of the state would be in doing the lesser good when the greater good was acheivable. But there is still a good being done according to Catholic Teaching--justice.

I am not saying you shouldn't be against the death penalty in this case; I am merely exhorting you to be against the death penalty the same way Church Teaching is against the death penalty: that it is good in theory and everyone guilty of a grave crime can justly receive it but the state should restrain itself for the greater good and choose mercy over justice in as many cases as it would be sufficient to do so.

[chris]

I feel that the death penalty should be utilized when the person on trial is found to be guilty. The 6th commandment is that thou shalt not murder. Murders and Blasphemers were stoned in the Old Testament.

He brutally murdered that innocent kid. I believe that he is guilty and his sentance should be served. Period.

We need to do more with murders than give them a slap on the wrist and a "big boy time out" in a jail cell. Because, then murders go free when their time is up.

Edited August 26, 2006 by Convert4888

[adsdrummer]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1051086' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:45 PM']
read that quote more carefully; because that's the exact quote I'm citing here.

If however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are [b]more[/b] in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

It is a greater good to show mercy, but because Traditional Catholic Teaching allows for the state to have recourse to the death penalty because of the Catholic principal of forfeiture, it is still a good if one guilty of a grave offence is executed. No matter what: if they are guilty then they receive the punishment justly. The state may be wrong to do it because it should have showed mercy, but if it goes ahead anyway the criminal is still receiving what he deserves according to Catholic teaching.

All I'm saying is that this is not murder and it is contrary to Catholic teaching to call it murder. The CCC says authorities have a moral obligation to limit themselves to non-lethal means when those non-lethal means are sufficient. If they do not, the sin is in not doing the greater good; it is not the sin of murder because that person has forfeited his right to life and it is only through the greater good of the mercy of the state that he would be permitted to still live.

The sin of the state would be in doing the lesser good when the greater good was acheivable. But there is still a good being done according to Catholic Teaching--justice.

I am not saying you shouldn't be against the death penalty in this case; I am merely exhorting you to be against the death penalty the same way Church Teaching is against the death penalty: that it is good in theory and everyone guilty of a grave crime can justly receive it but the state should restrain itself for the greater good and choose mercy over justice in as many cases as it would be sufficient to do so.
[/quote]

yeah..that does make sense.

[chris]

[quote]Not one of God's children deserve's death. Espcially when they have plead guilty to the sin.[/quote]

23 [b]For the wages of sin is death,[/b] but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Remember, Even after we are confessing our sins on earth we will be diciplined in the afterlife through purgatory.

Dicipline was institued by God for the punishment of those who dont follow his law.

What do you think God would do if one of his people sinned...Oh remember his whole people sinned in the wilderness by idol worship and they ended up murdering each other and God left them to die in the wilderness and their children inherited Cannan...

Edited August 27, 2006 by Convert4888

[catholicinsd]

I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.

[ruso]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1050830' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:38 AM']
I guess God was sinning when He caused Gemorrah to be destroyed with fire and brimstone.

I guess God was sinning when He caused Lot's wife to be made into a pillar of salt.

And of course, God was sinning when He caused the Egyptian army to be drowned in the Red Sea.

Let's not bring up all the First Born.

And what about the inhabitants of Jericho...
What a burden it must be, to have a higher moral standard than God Himself.
[/quote]
Your God, is not my God.
Brother mine.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051499' date='Aug 27 2006, 03:23 AM']
I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.
[/quote]

I had a difficult childhood too. I didn't go off robbing and killing innocent people.

Also, there is no way whatsoever that you can compare an unborn child who never harmed anyone to someone who cold-heartedly killed someone in that manner. And before you spout out some Berkeley la-la pinko nonsense about how it's not up to us to be judging innocent vs. guilty, I would point out 1 Peter 2:13-14 regarding governors commissioned "for the punishment of criminals and the recognition of the upright" (for the person who wanted a NT reference, there it is!).

Also, CCC 2267 says that bloodless means should be used not only when it is sufficient to protect human life but also to [b]protect public order and safety[/b]. Get it? [b]Public order[/b]. The criminal may no longer be a danger to society, but it may not be enough of a deterrant or [b]redress of the wrong[/b].

Now, I'm a bit skeptical of a lot of the applications of the death penalty based on how it was applied in Illinois, but in this case, I'm sorry, I cannot get worked up or shed a tear unless you show me DNA evidence or prosecutorial misconduct.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Norseman82

[Anomaly]

[quote name='ruso' post='1051501' date='Aug 27 2006, 03:16 AM']
Your God, is not my God.
Brother mine.
[/quote]LOL.
I don't think any of us 'own' God. When we lay claim to owning a 'god', we are choosing to make ourselves greater than that God.
God is what He/She/It is. We recognize that, or not.
Regardless, we are free to sometimes reap what we sow, to sometimes reap what we don't sow, to sometimes reap what others sow, to sometimes discard treasure we reap, to sometimes have our treasure stolen.
The only sure things in life are we live, we die, and there exists powers and existences beyond our ken. I don't own a God, nor do I claim to put limits on what powers I ascribe Him.

[Winchester]

I hope that after they execute him, he goes to Heaven.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051061' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:47 PM']
All those example are from the Old Testament. We are not people of the Old Testament. We are people of the Gospel- the Gospel of an executed man.
[/quote]


Your forgetting the story from Acts where a man and wife are both struck down dead for just lieing, to St. Peter. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of The New, there is just simpley more focus on His mercy in the new, yet this doesnt God.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1051593' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:50 PM']
Also, CCC 2267 says that bloodless means should be used not only when it is sufficient to protect human life but also to [b]protect public order and safety[/b]. Get it? [b]Public order[/b]. The criminal may no longer be a danger to society, but it may not be enough of a deterrant or [b]redress of the wrong[/b].
[/quote]

I would like to also point out that other non-murders in prison, and the police that run it are part of "society", and they are in great danger to these murderist/rapist, who conitue to kill and rape in prison, so just throwing someone in prison that has killed innocent people, does not protect "society." It just endangers another group of society.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051499' date='Aug 27 2006, 03:23 AM']
I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.
[/quote]
Why do you say "alleged murder"? Are you saying that Page [i]didn't[/i], in fact, brutally torture his victim to death in cold blood?