Emotions and Divine Immutability

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That is the perspective Rowan Williams...a perfect being would not be harmed by emotional experience.

but, in your analogy of a parent where is the room for grace? The parent is acting as an equation. good=reward, bad=punishment. But God goes against the equation as well. He is still loving perfectly, in that love he relates with our actions, not just responding to them.

Jeff, Myles..Im still wondering about your replies..it is finals week. So I might be stoic myself for the next 2 weeks or so. I am still debating if this issue is worth fighting.What is at stake?

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note from my Fr.


Dear Jon--

I am not sure if I could hope to bring clarity to that which has bedivilled you so intensely and for so long. But I am always ready to be an ear. Eventually one must surrender to the mystery (though your cancer language is a little scary). That it is effecting your devotional and prayer life would have me think the Evil One is using this on you. Surrender.

Ciao--

Fr. Mark

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1134977' date='Dec 4 2006, 06:14 PM']
note from my Fr.
Dear Jon--

I am not sure if I could hope to bring clarity to that which has bedivilled you so intensely and for so long. But I am always ready to be an ear. Eventually one must surrender to the mystery (though your cancer language is a little scary). That it is effecting your devotional and prayer life would have me think the Evil One is using this on you. Surrender.

Ciao--

Fr. Mark
[/quote]
I would agree. Surrender. We can't think our way through mysteries...when we don't understand, we must surrender. If God wants to make it clear to us after that, then so be it. Believe me, this (surrendering to the mystery) is something I have a problem with myself, but I find that the answers for whatever I need to know are generally given to me when I need to know them.

As a side note, can you give me the nutshell version of this open-theism stuff? I have no clue what it is and am too slow a reader to go through the threads on it.

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yea, I can pull thru some quick stuff...Dont research, let me do it. There is alot of bad information out there

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1134863' date='Dec 4 2006, 04:35 PM']
Jeff, Myles..Im still wondering about your replies..it is finals week. So I might be stoic myself for the next 2 weeks or so. I am still debating if this issue is worth fighting.What is at stake?
[/quote]

Just as a general point - to say that the traditional conception of God is a "stoic" conception is to drastically misunderstand the way philosophy and christian thought interacted in ancient times. Stoicism was but one of many lines of philosophical thought that significantly influenced Christianity, and it is far from the most important. Neoplatonism and Aristotelianism were both of much greater importance.

Calling it a "stoic" notion does justice neither to the depth of contribution made by non-stoic philosophy nor to the Early Church Fathers, who were not stoic but still held to this understanding of God. This isn't a "stoic" notion - it is a [i]christian[/i] notion. I cannot think of even [i]one[/i] Church Father who endorses a view of God like the one espoused by openness theory. If openness theory is really the Christian understanding of God, why does it fly so clearly against the teachings of the Early Church Fathers?

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

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The fathers would have not felt either way about open theism. They would have thought the issue was unnessasary to debate. Really, that it is bad theology and does not matter.

but hey, thats the fathers.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1135444' date='Dec 5 2006, 07:54 AM']
The fathers would have not felt either way about open theism. They would have thought the issue was unnessasary to debate. Really, that it is bad theology and does not matter.

but hey, thats the fathers.
[/quote]

I disagree strongly about this statement. If you look at the works of the Fathers like Origen, the Cappodocians and Augustine they were constantly trying to defend the transcendence of God for innumerable reasons. One of the main reasons for the Arian controversy is because Arius said that the Son's generation introduced change in the Godhead, same thing with the Eunomian and Apollinarian controversies, same thing with the Eutychian controversy actually...God's immutability was viciously defended by the Fathers, sometimes literally.

However, thats not my point.

My point is that you should stop trying to understand, not just for the sake of your finals, but for the sake of your spirit in general. It sounds like you're developing an illness of heart and an illness of soul and that is the opposite of what God would wish for you. As the good priest said this whole mess your mind in seems to be the creation of the evil one.

I can empathise with the difficulties you're having. You were schooled in Open Theism in a formative period of your life, ditching it is like ditching half of what you know about Christianity. Yet one has to accept these things sometimes. Catholicism is the in for the penny in for the pound type religion. When I came back to the Church I had to abandon many of the notions about God that I had formed incorrectly due to my lack of proper catechesis (and the influence of oriental philosophy upon me), whilst learning to accept new ones e.g. The Trinity. It is a shock to the system. It feels like you are suddenly spinning around with your full weight on your ankle hoping that it wont collapse beneath you painfully...
...but it has to be done.

Just look at the life of St Augustine who had to make a sharp break with all those elements of Platonism that did not suit the Church (so much so that people say he had a second conversion in the 390s, an idea being challenged by Carol Harrison in her new book 'Rethinking Augustine's early Theology'). But he believed that he may understand being illuminated inwardly by the light of faith rather than trusting solely in his powers of intellection.

You cannot take it with you. Thats something you're sooner or later going to have to accept just like many of the great saints that have come before you e.g. St Ambrose, St Augustine, St Hilary of Poitiers and so many others up to the present day. Rather than reading our responses perhaps it would be better for you to let read about their lives and their willingness to abandon their previously held convictions for sake of the kingdom of God?

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That was incredbility helpful Myles.

To be honest, the reason I responded so quick to the Father comment is my initial research into the fathers was for some kind of anything involving openess. I couldnt find it. I spoke to a respected protestant patristic professor (*who thinks very little of TWT, btw) and he says the fathers would have thought it bad theology and not worried about it.

but he isnt catholic, I throw my trust at this board.

I think you are correct in the example of the saints. Augustine is someone I am familiar with and he worked through the marks left by his former philosophy. I think I need to do that as well, but I need something to put into now. A big problem I am having is just that I can not "buy into" it. If someone asked me "what is the purpose of prayer" I would answer in an open theistic way, same with theodicy, same with God's relational nature. I need to learn the answers to those questions in the way the church taught. But at the same time not losing what I have. That is the dangerous ground I am treading. But it is a test. If I trust the Church I continue knowing He is right and She will help me. A battle between grace and pride.

I am going to read through the TWT and other threads during break. I am going to ask some very simple questions, but I am going to try to defeat this. Not at the academic level, but at the simplest one. Frank Sheed says this is one of the more difficult aspects of the faith to understand. But I would like to give him a run for his money.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1135475' date='Dec 5 2006, 07:18 AM']
That was incredbility helpful Myles.

To be honest, the reason I responded so quick to the Father comment is my initial research into the fathers was for some kind of anything involving openess. I couldnt find it. I spoke to a respected protestant patristic professor (*who thinks very little of TWT, btw) and he says the fathers would have thought it bad theology and not worried about it.

but he isnt catholic, I throw my trust at this board.

I think you are correct in the example of the saints. Augustine is someone I am familiar with and he worked through the marks left by his former philosophy. I think I need to do that as well, but I need something to put into now. A big problem I am having is just that I can not "buy into" it. If someone asked me "what is the purpose of prayer" I would answer in an open theistic way, same with theodicy, same with God's relational nature. I need to learn the answers to those questions in the way the church taught. But at the same time not losing what I have. That is the dangerous ground I am treading. But it is a test. If I trust the Church I continue knowing He is right and She will help me. A battle between grace and pride.

I am going to read through the TWT and other threads during break. I am going to ask some very simple questions, but I am going to try to defeat this. Not at the academic level, but at the simplest one. Frank Sheed says this is one of the more difficult aspects of the faith to understand. But I would like to give him a run for his money.
[/quote]

I suggest that you allow your thread to be a break. I know the spiritual syndromes you are showing...I've had them myself (and often do). The priest is right. Surrender it for your own good.

Ever read "A Wrinkle in Time"? If you have, then you know that Charles Wallace fell to "it" because he believed pridefully that he could defeat "it" with his mind...Satan is much quicker and smarter than we are. Satan is a much greater theologian than any man. Let it go and put your trust in the Church. Eventually God may show you the solution, but don't try to force it.

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Ok, I will avoid the thread...good idea,


BUT, y'all need to tell me EXACTLY what to read over break.
Let me be influenced....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1135514' date='Dec 5 2006, 10:26 AM']
Ok, I will avoid the thread...good idea,
BUT, y'all need to tell me EXACTLY what to read over break.
Let me be influenced....
[/quote]
[u]A Map of Life[/u], by Frank Sheed
[u]Yes or No?[/u], by Peter Kreeft
[u]Understanding the Scriptures[/u], by Scott Hahn (textbook)

[Guest JeffCR07]

Taking time during break to sit down and contemplate [i]On the Harmony of Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Grace of God with Free Choice[/i] by St. Anselm might help?

Also, like Myles and Raph, I totally know what you are going through. I had to drop a [i]lot[/i] of philosophical and theological assumptions and views that I had been trained in when I really committed to communion with the Church. It really is such a hard situation, but you said it exactly right: it is a battle between grace and pride. I'll definately keep you in my prayers, please keep me in yours!

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

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[quote name='Raphael' post='1135538' date='Dec 5 2006, 10:27 AM']
[u]A Map of Life[/u], by Frank Sheed
[u]Yes or No?[/u], by Peter Kreeft
[u]Understanding the Scriptures[/u], by Scott Hahn (textbook)


[/quote]


tryin to sell me more txt books.. I have read Thelogy and Sanity and Theology for beginners by Sheed, about 7 kreeft books and mucho Hahn books. My overall "catholicisity" is very strong and craving. If it was not, I would have been gone a long time ago. Are any of those books specific to this issue?


[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1135557' date='Dec 5 2006, 10:54 AM']
Taking time during break to sit down and contemplate [i]On the Harmony of Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Grace of God with Free Choice[/i] by St. Anselm might help?

Jeff
[/quote]


Being that St. Anselm was not an early church father I have very little of his writings. Is there a digital copy somewhere? Being that in the original TWT thread you cited him often I am sure he helped develop your understanding.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1135715' date='Dec 5 2006, 05:35 PM']
tryin to sell me more txt books.. I have read Thelogy and Sanity and Theology for beginners by Sheed, about 7 kreeft books and mucho Hahn books. My overall "catholicisity" is very strong and craving. If it was not, I would have been gone a long time ago. Are any of those books specific to this issue?
[/quote]
No. I think you need a break from this issue. I thought maybe you'd care to look at some of the texts I think helped me to see the interconnectivity of doctrine you so admire.

[Guest JeffCR07]

you can get free pdf files of a solid translation of all of Anselm's work off the webpage of Professor Jasper Hopkins. If you have trouble, I can just email you the file